Why would I build a Scion in Ascendancy

I get that a Scion's starting point is just a starting point, and you can do all the stuff other characters can with just a few passive points less optimisation. Ascendancy changes that, probably to make classes more unique, but the Ascendant just feels woefully inadequate.

With 6 points in the ascendant class, you can't really get to two sides effectively, the starting point is useless (if you're interested in that starting point, by the time you've reached merciless labyrinth you're probably there already). The bonusses are horribly behind the other ascendancy classes' bonusses as well.

Is there something I'm not seeing?

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Sygenilde wrote:

Is there something I'm not seeing?

Obviously there are things you're not seeing, or else these results wouldn't exist:
http://strawpoll.me/6926410/r

It's an incredibly strong class with a huge degree of flexibility built in, you just have to know what you're doing in order to use it.

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tackle70 wrote:

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Sygenilde wrote:

Is there something I'm not seeing?

Obviously there are things you're not seeing, or else these results wouldn't exist:
http://strawpoll.me/6926410/r

It's an incredibly strong class with a huge degree of flexibility built in, you just have to know what you're doing in order to use it.

Probably, others are way more experienced than me in the game. Part of it may just be because the Ascendant is the only option for the Scion, but that does not explain all.

I'll just make a Duelist or melee Ranger then, and wait what the future brings.

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Sygenilde wrote:

Is there something I'm not seeing?

The Ascendancy Scion is a poor class for most current builds, because they tend to be specialized in ways that the non-Scions specialized Ascendancies support, but it opens interesting opportunities for new build types.

Fundamentally, for an Ascendant Scion build to equal to, or better, than a non-Scion build, it needs to either:

a) Use the treejumping to gain something incredibly valuable to the build where it makes sense to give up on a baby-ascendancy rather than spending a few skillpoints on tracking there and picking up nice things on the way.

b) Make use of two baby-ascendencies, each of them lacking the specialization of the non-Scion 4-pointers and being considerably weaker than the full ascendencies other classes' get, in a way such that, taken together, they enable some synergy for the build that makes the whole worth more than the sum of the parts.


Exactly how many builds will work out in practice with the current baby-ascendancies, many of which not only look awfully weak, but probably are so in most normal builds that would consider them, is anybody's guess, but there'll undoubtedly be some wildly innovative builds that make good use of them.

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Pi2rEpsilon wrote:

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Sygenilde wrote:

Is there something I'm not seeing?

The Ascendancy Scion is a poor class for most current builds, because they tend to be specialized in ways that the non-Scions specialized Ascendancies support, but it opens interesting opportunities for new build types.

Fundamentally, for an Ascendant Scion build to equal to, or better, than a non-Scion build, it needs to either:

a) Use the treejumping to gain something incredibly valuable to the build where it makes sense to give up on a baby-ascendancy rather than spending a few skillpoints on tracking there and picking up nice things on the way.

b) Make use of two baby-ascendencies, each of them lacking the specialization of the non-Scion 4-pointers and being considerably weaker than the full ascendencies other classes' get, in a way such that, taken together, they enable some synergy for the build that makes the whole worth more than the sum of the parts.


Exactly how many builds will work out in practice with the current baby-ascendancies, many of which not only look awfully weak, but probably are so in most normal builds that would consider them, is anybody's guess, but there'll undoubtedly be some wildly innovative builds that make good use of them.

There's a third scenario also - any build that can make use of the stat nodes in the Ascendant class has a good chance to be better as Scion than another class. Currently that's really just Mjolner builds, but it's kind of a big deal for Mjolner builds as it makes gearing them much easier and it saves passive points in the process.

There's a few very strong specs in Ascendant e.g. Berserker (1.5% global leech) / Deadeye (for projectile builds) and any build which can use two of them to good effect and/or which can use the stat nodes + extra passive points is going to benefit quite a lot here.

I think the "gain an extra starting class' position in the tree" is going to be the most difficult thing to make use of. Mostly because the Scion doesn't have a difficult time getting anywhere she wants in the tree already and it's wildly inefficient to go from a new starting position to somewhere on the edge of the tree. I've not seen any great use for this yet, though I'm sure someone will eventually come up with something for it.

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tackle70 wrote:

There's a third scenario also - any build that can make use of the stat nodes in the Ascendant class has a good chance to be better as Scion than another class. Currently that's really just Mjolner builds, but it's kind of a big deal for Mjolner builds as it makes gearing them much easier and it saves passive points in the process.

Good point. I overlooked that option.

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There's a few very strong specs in Ascendant e.g. Berserker (1.5% global leech) / Deadeye (for projectile builds) and any build which can use two of them to good effect and/or which can use the stat nodes + extra passive points is going to benefit quite a lot here.

And even Deadeye, which is definitely one of the strongest, is only strong for some projectile builds. To pick an obvious example, Siege Ballista has 100% piercing and ignores projectile speed, so all Deadeye provides a Siege Ballista build is an extra projectile and up to 30% increased damage.

This is in many ways the general challenge (or problem, if one wants to look at it negatively) of the baby-ascendancies; their value may be decent, good, or even great if a build can make good use of all the modifiers they provide, but most of them include things that are of little or no use to many builds that are interested in some of what they provide, whereas playing the six characters with adult ascendancies, you get to pick the ascendancy that fits best and then pick the major nodes in that ascendency to best benefit your build with little or nothing wasted.

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I think the "gain an extra starting class' position in the tree" is going to be the most difficult thing to make use of. Mostly because the Scion doesn't have a difficult time getting anywhere she wants in the tree already and it's wildly inefficient to go from a new starting position to somewhere on the edge of the tree. I've not seen any great use for this yet, though I'm sure someone will eventually come up with something for it.

I quite agree. I'm looking forwards to seeing just how innovative people can get. None of my theorycrafted builds have so far succeeded in gaining any benefit worth sacrificing a baby-ascendancy and not picking pathing to the area, picking up good nodes along the way, but somebody will manage to do so and it will be interesting to see how it works out.

Just look at Tornado Shot!
Scion gets onslaught AND phasing when on full frenzy charges,
then the chance for power charges.

Look at Assassin AND Raider path SOOOO OP.

Oh and in new league u need to pop dem barrels etc...
Oh and that bonus crit from assassin on full HP.

Just too insane, now life wheel in range, so it's worth it losing the ranger's Raider that grants only 3 seconds onslaught or phasing, even if you don't take the extra projectile (GMP is really enough for TS) or that extra frenzy charge.


gonna play this for the labyrinth definitely! JUST LOOK AT THE TREE

for PoE Builder

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TheExile777 wrote:

Just too insane, now life wheel in range, so it's worth it losing the ranger's Raider that grants only 3 seconds onslaught or phasing, even if you don't take the extra projectile (GMP is really enough for TS) or that extra frenzy charge.

Scion Raider-Assassin certainly is one of the more obvious combinations, but I can't help feeling that you are underselling the Ranger's Raider. Look at a Ranger with Rapid Assault, Way of the Poacher, and Avatar of Frenzy

Tornado Shot Scion-Raider-Assassin on full frenzy:
10% chance to gain a Frenzy Charge on Kill
20% attack speed from Onslaught
20% movement speed from Onslaught
Phasing
+1% to Critical Strike Chance
40% to Critical Strike Multiplier against Enemies that are on Full Life
10% chance to gain a Power Charge on Hit against Enemies that are on Full Life
Your Critical Strikes with Attacks Maim Enemies
2 skill points
60 dex
20 int
25% chance to Avoid Elemental Status Ailments
2% chance to Dodge Attacks

Tornado Shot Ranger-Raider on full frenzy:
10% chance to gain a Frenzy Charge on Kill
+1 to Maximum Frenzy Charges
27%-45% attack speed (4-10 max frenzy charges)
8%-20% movement speed (4-10 max frenzy charges)
32%-50% increased attack damage (4-10 max frenzy charges)
4% MORE damage (from +1 Frenzy charge's base stats)
4% attack speed (from +1 Frenzy charge's base stats)
20% attack, cast, and movement speed when Onslaught is active, Onslaught activated 20% of kills for 3s.
45% Evasion rating
36% Frenzy Charge duration


Sure, he doesn't get phasing, but if you kill your enemy you don't need to run through him and the Ranger-Raider is a high speed blender. Even a moderate build picking up 1 Frenzy charge from bandits and 2 from the skilltree will end up with 7 charges, getting on full frenzy 14% movement speed, 40% attack speed, 41% increased damage, and 4% more damage when Onslaught doesn't trigger, attack speed increasing to 60% and movement speed to 34% when it does.

I don't know whether the Ranger-Raider or the Scion Raider-Assassin is best for your particular TS build idea, but I just wanted to point out that the Raider-Ranger brings so much more to the table than its conditional Onslaught.

wrong, get all buffs from scion one to compare, not only on raider one.

Onslaught for 3 sec only (even if you keep frenzies up) and no phasing is the main issue.

EDIT: oh and as I compared the tree, you ONLY get 6 nodes, so you get frenzy +1 yeah and 3% aps and damage per charge.

lower survivability, still no onslaught AND phasing permanently (inc duration means onslaught and phasing until you lose charges with scion wheel.
the crit on scion is just so OP (you want to 1 shot everything, that's why, and perma crit, therefore get free power charges. Just look at them, it's insane.

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TheExile777 wrote:

wrong, get all buffs from scion one to compare, not only on raider one.

Onslaught for 3 sec only (even if you keep frenzies up) and no phasing is the main issue.

1) What am I wrong about? Which of the Scion's Raider-Assassin's ascendancy buffs did I miss?*

2) Indeed, if the primary goal is phasing without using a quicksilver flask, the Scion's Raider is better than anything else, but as for Onslaught, surely it is irrelevant whether you gain high attack speed and movement speed from an Ascendancy class granting Onslaught or from an Ascendancy class granting it in other ways, so long as they all stack.



* Are you counting the more central starting location as a buff (e.g. the easy access to two more jewel nodes)? If so, I was comparing the Ascendancies in that comparison, not the possibilities for builds based on starting location. As I noted, it is entirely possible that for the build you are thinking of the Scion Raider-Assassin is best.