Deadly Infusion should be halved or something

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Ceryneian wrote:

Given that we have already seen threads crying about perma fortify and duelist spell block, I am not surprised that the Assassin crying thread has shown up.

Inquisitor nerf thread should be coming up soon.

Like, holy shit. Stfu. This is why we can't have nice things because everyone is constantly whining for fking nerfs!!!!

Lmfao - 50% inc crit multiplier is not even that much you guys are hilarious.

To be fair I expected the Duelist ones for Perma Melee Splash and Perma Fortify since they are rather stupidly easy to read and understand. To see what getting 0,5% base crit chance does in certain situations you have to actually do the math, since 0,5 sounds pretty unawesome compared to permanent anything. However having 6 Power Charges thats 50% more crit chance or more on basically any spell (except the few 7%+ ones).

Not to mention that you get some other fun benefits on the assassin. You can basically go full defense and just use the Assassin to basically get all your damage needs. Getting Power charges when not critting? Having higher base crit and crit multiplier and of course the basic 50% critchance per charge you get anyway.

If I compare that to any of the other trees, they don't have something comparable. Permanent Fortify might be nice for Spellcaster... but I doubt they will be Duelists. Melees can maintain it easily anyway, so it is more a comfort option without increasing the powerlevel too much.

But having basically double crit against full life enemies and a lot of multiplier simply allows an assassin to onehit anything that is not a boss. Of course the not revealed classes might have something even stronger, but compared to this the other classes are a few steps lower, of course the shadow has rarely any defensive options within this tree, but he could just get this from outside.

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We have no idea what they're going to do do base crit chance of spells and items or any other parts of the game. It's very premature to be worried about this.

Unless they greatly increase them this tree technically gives about 3 times the critchance against enemies on full life and about 50% more for lowlife. And even if they increase the base crit of spells and weapons to about 10% which would make them totally ridicolous, considering we already know the ranger has easy access to quite some crit, I doubt that they change a lot of this. So since there is not much room to increase the base crit chance, because it already is quite high considering the amount of crit avaible. So unless they reduce all crit modifiers on the tree, items, jewels, power charges they can't increase the base chance. And they already revealed other crit options in the ascendancy trees which are quite high considering an increase in base crit, so it won't happen.

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@Scrotie: LOL. Most builds that are crit heavy are ALREADY crit-capped at 90%+ crit chance. And really man you worried about 50% inc. crit multiplier? 50%? We talking about 50% inc. crit multiplier?? Similar to what you can get on a crit amy?

Ehm I would just get less crit on the tree and more other offensive stats or more defense.

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There was already a thread about the Inquisitor penetration node being OP, you must have missed it. I don't agree with that one, either. So, really, on most of these Ascendancy doomsaying threads, I'm more on I_NO's side than the nerf police.

For the Inquisitor it depends on how it works. The highest unmodified Resistance of a boss is 44% or os. So if it works after Penetration gems the benefit is basically zero, without removing the requirement for the Penetration gem. Not to mention that "ignores Resistances" sounds a lot like actually ignoring it in the calculation removing the benefit of negative resistances. Without knowing how the mechanic works it is a bit hard to really think about how powerful it is.


The thing though, why I feel its not a big thing is that it will get more focus once the release comes nearer and the node basically consists of two numerical values which are easy to change. Giving 0,2% base crit per power charge would still be cool and noteworthy without blowing it completly out of proportion. Right now I'm basically thinking between Duelist, Ranger and Shadow which is cool, but this one passiv totally shifts it towards Shadow for my TS Ranger. Permanent Fortify is cool and definitly something I would consider, exspecially since it comes with another 13% movespeed on the class. The Deadeye was at first the most obvious decision with getting Pierce added as Crit, which is really cool with Infractem, which is a good bow when entering endgame, not the mention the synergy with Drillneck. Far Shot is just nice and Endless Munitions just gives Tornado Shot one more Arrow, which can be 17% more damage.

After that I looked at the Assassin and noticed he gets 100% MORE Critchance when enemies are on Full Life. So your first hit is always a crit... and likely the last hit. That is incredible for Puncture. And Tornado Shot likely just eliminates the screen. So I don't really need to think a lot about it, Shadow clearly is the best choice right now, it would even allow me to get rid of a few crit nodes and I only have 5 power charges, so not the highest benefit from it. And due to his much less annoying comments (although his Oak comment isn't really that well placed, but bringing a stick to a bow fight is likely even less smart) he is clearly the winner against Duelist and Ranger.

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But in all seriousness, if you ever wanted to make a Crit Incinerate build, the current wording of Deadly Infusion makes your dream possible.

Double Void Battery Incinerate would have a crit chance of 30,6% without any other modifiers to crit (just the base crit chance from 2 Void Batteries and the 450% from 9 Power Charges). So I feel Incinerate has to be nerfed again :P

I wouldn't actually mind it unless they make the content harder based on the assassin powerlevel so I can't really enjoy the other classes.

So they could keep the 0,5% and just remove the multiplier, since it wouldn't be needed and still allow fun things like Crit Incinerate or they adjust numbers to make it less impactful. RIght now it is simply incredible strong, considering the safety Crit provides with Freeze and King of the Hill.

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Emphasy wrote:

After that I looked at the Assassin and noticed he gets 100% MORE Critchance when enemies are on Full Life. So your first hit is always a crit...

Wow, I didn't even notice that. I thought it was increased. Wow.

Still, it's just the first hit, so it's more of a vs-white-mobs thing. So I won't be hopping on the nerf wagon for Ambush.

But wow.

Nice post.

The shadow ascendency seems weak. It's already pretty easy to crit cap on daggers, wands, and legacy windripper. The shadow ascendency will reduce the investment required to cap those builds, but the passive points you save this way I think are collectively weaker than 100% spell block, crit resist bypass, perm fortify for bows/wands, 29/28/81 block/spell block/life on block. The builds that already crit cap might find other ascendancies more desirable.

The shadow ascendency is nicer for builds that don't currently crit cap, like many spells or other weapon types. But ultimately, at the high end, dps is not an issue. So I think it's fine to give the shadow a strong dps ascendency. If they nerf it I'd want to see defensive bonuses added.

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Vhlad wrote:

The shadow ascendency seems weak. It's already pretty easy to crit cap on daggers, wands, and legacy windripper. The shadow ascendency will reduce the investment required to cap those builds, but the passive points you save this way I think are collectively weaker than 100% spell block, crit resist bypass, perm fortify for bows/wands, 29/28/81 block/spell block/life on block. The builds that already crit cap might find other ascendancies more desirable.

The shadow ascendency is nicer for builds that don't currently crit cap, like many spells or other weapon types. But ultimately, at the high end, dps is not an issue. So I think it's fine to give the shadow a strong dps ascendency. If they nerf it I'd want to see defensive bonuses added.

Well the thing is the builds that would benefit from Duelist might not go Duelist. The Assassin though is best for basically all Archers, yes permanent Fortify is an option but thats only important if you are lazy. For Spellcasters I can't possibly come up with something as strong as this. And a caster will likely not go Duelist, since capping Spellblock would still be a heavy investment. Gladiator gives you 10% increased Blockchance, so without investing into more Spellblock it isn't that easy and not something you can apply to just any build. But the Assassin is an incredible damage boost to any build that has at least 5 power charges, which could be basically any build that a shadow can make, since he can always get his own charge. Of course the Duelist offers strong options but all those basically just enhance what the Duelist already does.

Even the Marauder has interesting things. "Reduced Elemental Damage" should go on top of the effect of Fortify, since Reduced modifiers should stack additively. With one more Endurance Charge, this would make... well for real Juggernauts and is likely a good 2h Option as is the Duelist choice which offers Melee Splash for Free. Those look fairly similar in terms of power. But when someone would have asked me to think of something for the Assassin I would not have thought of something that strong seeing the other Classes.

Right now the Assassin is good for Ranged Classes, a Wander would more likely be a Shadow and get that node than starting as a Duelist, because it frees up so much Damage. You need basically no investment into Crit at all to be better at crit than any build is right now. Considering 5% Critchance as a base you get with 5 Power Charges, which is easy to get a Critchance of 26%. With a Wand that already has 8% base crit you end up at nearly 37% Critchance, without anything else invested in crit besides the one power charge. So you basically only need Crit Multiplier, since Chance is abundant.

And I can actually proof my point:

https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1539924

This build would suddenly be incredible strong by just getting the one power charge at the shadow start. With Binos already high critchance he would just get high crit invest 2 points into the chaos/DoT part. But since he is lazy and totally paranoid he would likely just be Duelist instead of getting incredible high basically free damage.

perm fortify is not just for lazy
The benefit as I see it is mainly for bow/wand.

If your damage is already high enough that everything dies in 1 attack (which is the case in top gear), the shadow ascendency adds little. It frees up passive points.

But if you want 25% DR with a bow or a wand, those passive points can't be spent to give it to you. The same goes for 100% spell block, or resist bypass on crit (especially so in pvp).

Or the witch ascendency that gives you bone offering (cwdt lvl 1, desecrate, bone offering) = 29% block, 28% spell block, 81 life on block. Whatever passive points you free up by not having to invest in crit, is not enough to get that much block. That same witch ascendancy also gives you and your allies 4% damage + 2% attack/cast speed per aura, which is presumably affected by aura effectiveness. For coop 8 aura builds with +66% effectiveness, this is a massive aggregate dps boost (+318% damage / +159% attack speed / +159% cast speed in aggregate), and you can get that with the block/spell block/life on block.

So top gear builds may opt for other ascendency classes. Players tend to over-value DPS when looking at build power. At the high end DPS requirements are already satisfied. It's the defensive options I find more valuable.

@Vhlad: In both of your posts you mention "top gear." Which I assume means Standard-only mirrored stuff. So based off every indication you've ever received from GGG, do you really think they're suddenly going to start balancing based off of permanent league standards, or will they continue to balance for temporary leagues?

I feel your argument simply fails in a non-permleague environment. As far as rapidly climbing a fresh ladder is concerned, little or nothing competes with getting max crit as easily as an Assassin will be able to accomplish it. In order to climb fast and farm fast, you need to worry about survivability only just enough to avoid dying, and all the rest goes to Teh Deeps.

And even given all the time in the world to accumulate the best gear, I feel like your argument is something which would have to be tested, with actual experimentation, in order to truly confirm or deny. Which won't happen until post-Ascension.

Naw, by top gear I don't mean literally best of the best mirror gear. Upper tier gear would be a better way to phrase it, or top 15% (not top 0.01%)

Once you have level 20 spell gems or a decent weapon, 6L (maybe even 5L), good uniques/rares, you're clearing map screens in 1 attack/cast (assuming utilization of a current meta build with a sensible passive tree). Basically the gear/builds you see players 90+ wearing in new league softcore.

Although, my gear is pretty poopy in talisman and I've been clearing screens at level 80 with EK. Heck EK has been clearing screens in 1 click (solo) since some point in normal.

There's been a lot of DPS power creep and supports keep getting stronger. More DPS in shadow ascendancy just doesn't seem that compelling compared to some of the massive defensive buffs other ascendancies get. It is not too expensive or time consuming to reach a point where clear speed is determined by your range + mobility and sustained XP gain is determined by your survivability (i.e. where additional damage increases provide marginal efficiency gains).

GGG tends to swing the nerf hammer at things that are strong defensively, like block, max resistances, life, ondars guile, acrobatics, MoM/coil mechanics, leech, or regen. I'm more inclined to anticipate nerfs to versatile combatant, fortitude, mistress of sacrifice (or bone offering itself) before deadly infusion. And from a DPS perspective, inevitable judgement is completely broken in pvp.

You're arguing that deadly infusion needs to be halved because everyone competitive is going to be building crit shadow. I just don't see it. Yeah it lets you save points in the passive tree and allows you to build more defensively, but spending those points in the regular passive tree will not give you the same defensive benefit as versatile combatant, fortitude, or mistress of sacrifice. You have to traverse the entire tree to get just the block from mistress of sacrifice.

Agreed with Vlad, people saying you can save points and get more survivability instead - it won't be many points. On top of that Shadow side doesn't even have that much survivability to begin with.

You guys must be really fking bored if you are making such threads crying about high crit chance and 50% crit mult.

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You guys must be really fking bored if you are making such threads crying about high crit chance and 50-100% crit mult.

FTFY

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I_NO wrote:

You balance people make me sick how about you wait for the entire fucking patch before screaming nerf eh?

There's too many variables missing like wtf are they going to do the mobs to counter our ''power'' in terms of us being accident etc there's nothing insane right now all you're doing is making I'M GOING TO BECOME A GOD without knowing the facts.

This.

Also: Ascendancy classes remove gem pressure from your main attack skill. MSplash, Forty, Chain, Penetration gem (Templar, Foes don't have resists on crit) just to name a few. In addition, some of them are weaker forms of keystones (i.e. Dodge) and slightly better then notables (i.e. Graceful Assault).

Shadow tree is nothing else. It also took several hits to its notables, because God, The World and 90% of crit builds going there for Crit. In the Talisman patch, the CC was again reduced by 40% (one of the 20% was moved to the projectile node). But you can no longer route through the 4x20CC 30CC/30CM nodes. So hes getting something back (and prolly, some more adjustment coming to the tree.)

If you do not one-shot whites/nearly all blues (at least on a CC-Build), you did something wrong anyway. If you do that with a Rare, well, we gonna see how you long you going to survive with the current reflect and leech mechanics.