Donald Trump

Well, at the very least there should be a distinction between the two. I guess that's kind of the difference between mundane laws and constitutions, but a feel the former should aspire to be better than they currently are; I feel politicians and their constituents are far too cavalier about it.

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NeroNoah wrote:

The balkans, specially Greece, it's hardly a good place to stay. That place is in middle of an economical crisis. I'm not sure that just wanting to go to Germany or Sweden qualifies as being an economic migrant (I wonder how many of them even understand the fact that some want them to stop at the first safe country). It doesn't help that those are the only two countries that are relatively enthusiastic about the whole thing. Are you from any of those countries?

(I know there are millions in Turkey and Jordan too, and numbers could be too big to help them all, but still...)

Turkey is already safe. It might be "overcrowded" but it's safe. So is Jordan, Egypt, Morroco, Tunisia... all those countries better suited to host islamic immigrants. We can financially help refugees there. Also, there's Saudi Arabia & Iran - the two big players behind the war in Syria, that have taken in zero refugees. Syria is basically a proxy battlefield between those two countries.

Then there's the demographics of those "refugees". At some stage in 2015, 75% of them were fighting age males. Later it went down to something like 60%, which is still way to high. Either in arab countries men felee the war zone and women stay behind, or there's plenty of economic migrants among them.

I was a kid during Yugoslav wars and we had a ton of bosnian refugees in my country. Guess what: they were almost all women and children, no fighting age males - those stayed behind, on the front. But then again in those times refugees didnt get welfare...

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

It's silly and wrong to pretend that our understanding of morality and ethics has reached its limit, that the behaviors we believe are good or acceptable today will not be seen as grossly and almost comically unethical in the future.

Yes, but what absolutely needs to be recognized is that western democracies are morally and ethically superior to some african, ME and asian cultures. You know, cultures where gays are killed on sight and women whipped for adultery or "honor killed" by their family. Those cultures don't mix with western style democracies, we have nothing to learn from them and it's not our duty to "civilize" them, not by going there or bringing them here.

That's why for the time being, I'd vote for Trump and walls, even tho I don't like the guy one bit. EU would badly need a Trump right now.

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First, moral or ethical superiority is a myth.

Only if you are a cultural relativist.

Not kiling your daughter because she disobeyed your arranged marriage, is morally superior to killing her. Not mutilating female genitalia is morally superior to mutilating it. Not legaly treating minorities as second class citizens is morally superior. Not executing gays by slowly choking them is morally superior. etc...

There's plenty of crazy religious zaelots in the middle east and they aren't christians. Also I'm not sure what has the British goverment anything to do with 7th century legal system in some ME countries? Is the existence of Israel forcing the Arabs to stone and whip their own women? :P

Some cultures out there are despicable. White guilt ridden westerners will find every reason to lay the blame elswhere, rather than on the culture itself, but that doesn't change the fact that those social norms are not acceptable in western democracies. And people with those social norms should not be allowed in.

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I hope the USA don't elect Trump, as this guy clearly doesn't give a shit about the welfare of other countries and is probably more inclined to get these situations messier than to solve them.

Hey, guess what? The President of the United States doesn't swear an oath to "give a shit about the welfare of other countries." He swears an oath to "[F]aithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States."

Nothing in there about other countries. Nope.

It's about time one of our leaders put America FIRST. We have messes of our OWN which need cleaning up. =^[.]^=

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NeroNoah wrote:

On a lighthearted note, I'll share this link about the shitposting war between r/sweden and r/The_Donald. It seems Sweden won the dank meme war against some Trump supporters.

Highlight of the whole thing: In order to properly educate /r/Sweden about who exactly they are letting fuck their wives (and their goats), our "no racism" rule will no longer be enforced at all with regards to the middle east.

No ill ill against Trump supporters, but some of you are son unreal, XDDDD

r/sweden has some dank memers, but literally all of Reddit helped them with upvotes and downvoted every r/the_donald post to hell. It wasn't a fair fight but r/sweden won, I acknowledge that.

t. r/the_donald connoisseur

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NeroNoah wrote:

How do you assess the compatibility of a specific immigrant?

Double blind randomized controlled trials?

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NeroNoah wrote:

How do you judge how compatible is something with western democracy?

The Bard explains it well:

"Violent delights have violent ends, and in their triumph die, like fire and powder which as they kiss consume."

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NeroNoah wrote:

Should we ignore the problem because muslims refugees are fundamentally incompatible with western culture? It doesn't seem as simple as it is.

If you had a slightly leaking ceiling, you'd probably put a few pans underneath to catch the water. When you start to run out of pans and the water has been leaking for several years, it might be time to think about patching the roof instead.

The world leaders will ignore the cause of the problem, until the problems at home become worse than the effort to fix the origin of the problems.

The people and their culture are NOT incompatible. The way the governments are coddling and letting some groups distort the usual laws and responsibilities is what is wrecking the culture.

If a bunch of refugees from a Monty Python skit moved into the neighborhood and suddenly started singing the SPAM song ALL night, EVERY night in front of their neighbors bedroom window because that's just their culture, then they end up in a jail cell.

If they peacefully sing the SPAM song in their own homes, or in appropriate places, then neither culture is ruined.

This is all simple stuff. Treat human adults like human adults. Rights AND Responsibilities. The rest will take care of itself. No racism required, no more TSA required. No more ... oops almost typed a common sense requirement that many people who are brainwashed (and brain tie-dyed) would find offensive - for reasons that they couldn't logically defend.

I'm thinking we should all start practicing Robotism, and direct our anger there instead.

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NeroNoah wrote:

That's where we disagree Scrotie; never let the perfect be enemy of the good.
.

To accomplish that, you must also remember that the road to Hell is paved with good intentions.

Oh, and unless you have no fear at all of government, don't do much digging on the latest research on mind reading machines.

It'll be great for people with paralysis, seizures, dystonia and such, but the great strides they are making are not going to bode well for the public in terms of self determination.

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morbo wrote:

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

It's silly and wrong to pretend that our understanding of morality and ethics has reached its limit, that the behaviors we believe are good or acceptable today will not be seen as grossly and almost comically unethical in the future.

Yes, but what absolutely needs to be recognized is that western democracies are morally and ethically superior to some african, ME and asian cultures. You know, cultures where gays are killed on sight and women whipped for adultery or "honor killed" by their family. Those cultures don't mix with western style democracies, we have nothing to learn from them and it's not our duty to "civilize" them, not by going there or bringing them here.

That's why for the time being, I'd vote for Trump and walls, even tho I don't like the guy one bit. EU would badly need a Trump right now.

This is one of those instances where actually spending some time with some of those people really broadens your perspective.

While in the US Army I guarded a group of Afghani laborers (concrete layers, all male) for a couple weeks. They had an Afghani translator and naturally we talked quite a bit. The one thing which needed no translation was when I had to interrupt two of the workers having sex in a portapotty.

None of his co-workers made any attempt at violence. At all. They laughed, actually. That didn't need any translation either.

Of course I talked with the translator about this. He explained the local laws regarding women having sex out of wedlock - they're killed (I think stoned to death); he pointed out that pregnancy would make it obvious, so obviously access to contraceptives is limited. There is also some religious reasoning wherein masturbation is even more sinful than sodomy, something about spilling seed, although I didn't really understand his logic and argued the point with him at length. In any case, a little man-on-man action is apparently the least of all evils, because hey, a man just needs release sometime.

But most importantly, according to the locals, Afghani men buttfuck each other because they love the women they want to be with and don't want them to die. To them, it's the honorable thing to do. At least that's what they told me.

I also grew up in a rather strongly Arabic community in Michigan. Met lots of Iraqi immigrants. Most of their families cared deeply about news from back home, but all of them hated Hussein. My first and so far only attendance at a burning effigy party involved a paper mache replica of the mad dictator.

So... yeah. I'm not saying that there aren't ISIS sympathizers among the immigrant population, and it wouldn't really surprise me to find out gay sex is also punishable by death in Afghanistan. But things are a LOT more complicated than you're trying to make them out to be. I mean, yes, obviously, some beliefs and practices are not really compatible with western democracy, but it's something akin to racism to just assume that people from those countries are in full agreement with their home country's status quo.

Although, for the crazier fucks who want to enter a more civilized country, it is indeed not our duty to civilize them.

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morbo wrote:

Turkey is already safe. It might be "overcrowded" but it's safe. So is Jordan, Egypt, Morroco, Tunisia... all those countries better suited to host islamic immigrants. We can financially help refugees there. Also, there's Saudi Arabia & Iran - the two big players behind the war in Syria, that have taken in zero refugees. Syria is basically a proxy battlefield between those two countries.

Then there's the demographics of those "refugees". At some stage in 2015, 75% of them were fighting age males. Later it went down to something like 60%, which is still way to high. Either in arab countries men felee the war zone and women stay behind, or there's plenty of economic migrants among them.

I was a kid during Yugoslav wars and we had a ton of bosnian refugees in my country. Guess what: they were almost all women and children, no fighting age males - those stayed behind, on the front. But then again in those times refugees didnt get welfare...

Have you seen that guy Erdogan? It's going the same dark path...Some even suspect the country is collaborating with ISIS.
I'm not sure how overcrowded is ok, specially when you hear stuff like people being in the streets (that means, Turkey has not enough manpower for that).

Your solution was the ideal like 4 years ago, in that sense the world dropped the ball. Some of it could work though, but the Pandora's box is open, and EU has failed controlling the whole thing for sure.

Honestly, I think you are seeing too much into the people that arrived because welfare. I think the most probably fact is that men are taking the most dangerous route and letting their families in Turkey and Jordan.

(that doesn't mean there are not freeloaders, but for the data I've seen from the UN, those have entered more via Italy, for example)

I'm open to change opinion with more data, though.

By the way, this could interest you: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/13/opinion/international/whats-a-european-liberal-to-do.html

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morbo wrote:

Some cultures out there are despicable. White guilt ridden westerners will find every reason to lay the blame elswhere, rather than on the culture itself, but that doesn't change the fact that those social norms are not acceptable in western democracies. And people with those social norms should not be allowed in.

Well, it's a mixed thing. What happened in Iran was certainly US fault, the place was becoming liberal before the revolution.

Also, protecting Saudi Arabia allowed them to finance Salafism and the like.

I'm not saying to blame the west for all ME's ills, but there is some shared guilt.

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DalaiLama wrote:

Double blind randomized controlled trials?

It was a rhetorical question; actually you are totally right. It just rubs me wrong when people go after culture rather than judge the individual. ("We won't let muslims come at all")

Also, if you read carefully, one of the points I asked and you don't mentioned (gay marriage) shows how the whole western compatibility is relative sometimes. By that criteria, a lot of religious people in US wouldn't travel either. Compatibility with democracy is really a tricky thing to measure beyond some obvious points like "don't kill/rape the locals". Where do we stop? When people are homophobe or think women that have sex outside wedlock are whores? Western people are imcompatible with western democracy paradoxically.

Half assed, unfair solutions, had to nitpick.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

Although, for the crazier fucks who want to enter a more civilized country, it is indeed not our duty to civilize them.

Well, that's tricky for me. Let's say, you don't want people that would go violent inside your country, sure, but the duty to civilize them it still exists. It's not like you can live in a vacuum behind walls, it has failed historically (China's Great Wall anyone?). It's more like a duty towards you somehow, you are not going to be relatively safe if the rest of the world is a shithole.

That being said, you have a interesting life story Scrotie, :P