Deadeye Keystone Nodes should be more generic

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ephetat wrote:

Powerful Precision
Current:
Projectiles have 100% additional chance to Pierce targets at the start of their movement, losing this chance as the projectile travels further. Projectile Critical Strike Chance increased by Arrow Pierce Chance.
Suggestion:
Projectiles have 100% additional chance to Pierce targets at the start of their movement, losing this chance as the projectile travels further. Projectile Critical Strike Chance increased by Projectile Pierce Chance.

This is only a negative change. Arrow pierce chance is always a higher stat than generic pierce chance because there's nothing in the game currently that subtracts from arrow-specific pierce chance.

There are two stats - pierce chance, and arrow pierce chance.
arrow pierce chance implicitly includes pierce chance, as well as arrow-specific pierce chance. Thus it is always the higher of the two stats.

Spells can already benefit from this, just like they can from Drillneck. It explicitly applies it to "projectile crit chance", not "projectile attack crit chance" or "arrow crit chance". Making it based on arrow pierce chance just means arrow specific pierce chance bonuses can count towards this increase, which is only positive for the player, because that value is always as high or higher than generic pierce chance.

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Telzen wrote:

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

Adding the (green bold) word "Projectile" to your suggestion for Powerful Precision is completely unnecessary. Just delete the word "Arrow," no other changes necessary. (Hard to highlight an omitted word, though.)

But really, I disagree with your suggestion for Powerful Precision anyway. There are lots of spells with 100% pierce chance, and although I understand the current thing with Infractem not working with Drillneck and all, I think that's bordering on a bug and at the very least very confusing to players. I'd specifically limit Powerful Precision to arrow pierce chance in order to keep things in line (and change the Infractem interaction so using that bow would give 100% critical chance to projectile spells using Powerful Precision, to make that a quirky option).

I like your first two suggestions, though.

Off topic and all but really? Do they not work together? I have a character that has both. I paid a lot for that Drillneck to.

Infractem's arrow pierce chance does increase projectile damage with Drillneck. Note that that too applies to all projectile damage, not just attacks.

Regarding other nodes, attacks and spells have different kinds of base damage and different scaling. There are aspects where some things have been made attack-specific because attacks need the bonus, but making them generic would lead to the Deadeye being too good for certain spell builds.

It affects it only because you have a special keystone stat (or unique stat in the case of Drillneck) that specifically states it makes it apply to all projectile damage.
It's making spells care about a stat that usually has no effect on spells, just like Iron Will.

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Char1983 wrote:

Does that mean that if I am wearing a Drillneck, or more generally a Penetrating Arrow Quiver, which has 10% pierce chance, that that will increase my Projectile Crit Chance (both Arrows and Spells)? It is not just the passive tree?

Of course.

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Char1983 wrote:

Now here comes the more tricky question: What if I use a bow skill with a Pierce gem as support? Does that work and increase crit chance as well? Does it only work for that specific skill (would make sense)?

That's exactly the same as any other pierce bonus except that it only applies for that skill. It won't modify any other skill.

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Char1983 wrote:

And, even more tricky: If I use Fireball with Pierce support, will skilling Powerful Precision increase the Fireball skill crit chance?

Yes.

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Char1983 wrote:

Cause it only increases the Fireball pierce chance, but the Pierce gem generally increases pierce chance, so also arrow pierce chance, however, supporting Fireball, it obviously does not increase arrow pierce chance...

I'm really not sure what you're trying to say here, but supporting Fireball with the Pierce support does increase the pierce chance, and therefore the arrow pierce chance, of the Fireball skill.
Fireball doesn't usually make any use of the arrow pierce chance, but Drillneck and Powerful Precision let use that stat to affect it.

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cryptc wrote:

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Mark_GGG wrote:

I'm really not sure what you're trying to say here, but supporting Fireball with the Pierce support does increase the pierce chance, and therefore the arrow pierce chance, of the Fireball skill.
Fireball doesn't usually make any use of the arrow pierce chance, but Drillneck and Powerful Precision let use that stat to affect it.

So what you're trying to say is that all Pierce is also Arrow Pierce, but not all Arrow Pierce is generic Pierce (i.e. won't have spells pierce and so on) so by having the node affected by Arrow Pierce is it better in all circumstances.

Yes.

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Toodumb wrote:

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Ceryneian wrote:

Ok now I am confused. So LS pierce and Ice Spear pierce also give them an arrow pierce property? Or is it pierce specific to the skill so the keystone would not apply?

Mark is saying that every skill already has an arrow pierce property. PA, EA, Fireball, Ice Spear, Lightning Strike, even stuff like, oh I don't know, Cyclone, which would never ordinarily care about it.

Yes. Any stat is always quereyable and will always give a value. Sometimes that value might be zero (a new character with no items or passives clearly has no pierce chance).
If you take a 5% pierce chance passive, you have 5% pierce in your stats (and thus 5% arrow pierce chance as well). Since all your skills use your stats, if any of those skills check what pierce chance they have, the result they'll get is 5. It's just that there's no reason for non-projectile skills to care about that value normally.

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Toodumb wrote:

Mark is also saying that arrow pierce = generic pierce chance + arrow specific pierce chance, which is always equal to generic pierce chance because the game currently has no sources of arrow-specific pierce chance.

Not quite. It's always equal to or greater than generic pierce chance, because all sources of arrow-specific pierce chance in the game are positive (and providing negative ones would likely never happen for technical reasons).
For an example of arrow-specific pierce chance, see the "10% chance of Arrows Piercing" implicit mod on Penetrating Arrow Quivers.