Nerf Ancestral Bond - it should have a downside

"

"I don't like the fact that others have fun, please nerf."

I played totem builds and had fun, in the sense that clearing maps fast with little thought is fun (it is). But I dislike how totems (a) trivialize most of the content and (b) feel nearly mandatory to use if you want to progress while easily staying alive. Adding a meaningful downside to AB fixes those, and would be more fun.

"

MoLoK13 wrote:

Whole point is not to ruin totem builds, just make the risk involved in playing them slightly more in line with every other build in the game.

Why should every build in the game have the same risk? Amount of risk should remain a key variable in build diversity.

Totemers, off-screen ranged attackers, summoners, and trappers/miners all have the capability to place themselves in less direct risk than melee-ranged builds, but there are pros and cons to each. It's troublesome to try to homogenize the risk while retaining the other pros and cons.

For example, damage sharing with totems in combination with overkill + poor totem mitigation of crit damage, poison damage, physical damage, resists can create scaling scenarios where incoming shared damage is higher than it would have been if it were dealt directly to the player, especially if the totems are under certain map mods or curse effects that amplify the damage they receive. Additionally, it would become riskier to play with ancestral bond than almost every other build in the game since you'd have scenarios where the player + 2-3 totems all get hit at once (as well as scenarios where massive damage is dealt to a totem that absolutely is meant to be manually avoided, like the shoop da whoop mouth lazer meme act 4 boss). Furthermore, the high placement cost of totems + the inability to leech (both directly and indirectly via triggers & CWDT) + the inability (generally, efficiently) to gain flask charges rapidly via surgeons + your shared damage proposal can create significant sustainability hurdles, especially in certain small room boss fights with large ground aoe coverage.

Targeting ancestral bond with additional downsides won't necessarily homogenize the risk of totem users, either. It may just incentivize using spirit mantle or hybrid (1 totem + attack) builds instead.

Finally, while totemers have the capability to hide behind their totems to lower risk, it's less efficient. There's a time loss associated with playing that way. With strong gear, it's more efficient to run ahead of your totems to loot, curse, even rallying cry. So there's already an incentive for a totem user to increase their risk (while, for example, off-screen ranged attackers don't lose efficiency by continuing to kill off-screen).

Personally, i never liked totem build. It is fun, but they are fragile. I used to play an arc totem witch. But after monster buffs and the reduced cast speed penalty on top of the 50% less which is huge, i scraped her.


Ancestral bond, doesn't need a nerf, it needs a buff. I think it should raise the totem limit to 2 additional totems with no totem expire duration. It would make Flame totem OP because Flame totem doesn't have any penalties associated with that gem.

Any other skill you use with spell totem is still hit hard. Idk if anyone realizes it, but 30% less cast speed and 50% less damage is a huge loss in DPS. Not to mention spell totem wastes a gem slot, and it does not work with spell echo. so that alone turns your spell/attack into a 4 link when using a 5 link weapon/armor.


I look at it this way, if monsters esp Dominus can summon 5 totems, why cant we?

this is an interesting topic/thread. the totems meta was always here but it's interesting how changes to surrounding mechanics/meta changed the totem users

for majority of time totems/traps had these major pluses or minuses (among others, but we'll discuss it later):

+: no reflect
+: safer
-: no leech

well, in 2.0 monsters are scarier and hit like trucks. theres no reflect but also no one leeches much

so really, first and third cancel each other. but the safer plus just got huge. staying alive isnt just a bee gees song anymore, it's very important in any league and it's easier to do with the safe haven of a totem.

ancestral bond already have a downside that you cannot do direct damage; however, this downside is pretty much archaic with few exceptions (like, say using a self-cast firestorm/incinerate/whatnot to supplement damage). most people investing into double totem today will play double totem and will clear by hide and seek/place and run method.

[OP has a good analogy with summoners there, except I'd argue that summons dont get double dip damage from things 'fire damage' or 'elemental damage' for both themselves and minions when they pick up the node, but totem users do.]

overall, it's interesting to read proposals and thoughts.

Ancestral Bond sucks in very high level maps. The fact that you can't leech to sustain is a huge downside when there is a lot of high damage flying around.

"

DTODD wrote:

Ancestral Bond sucks in very high level maps. The fact that you can't leech to sustain is a huge downside when there is a lot of high damage flying around.

This. Once you start taking 30-50% single hits on your life pool, you really start noticing the lack of leech. And if shit goes south, it's not very hard to run out of flask charges either.

"

This. Once you start taking 30-50% single hits on your life pool, you really start noticing the lack of leech. And if shit goes south, it's not very hard to run out of flask charges either.

Given that leech rate is capped, it seems very unhelpful against spike damage. You're still gonna be chugging potions.

Plus, compare a totem to a self-cast build: self-cast needs to run at least 1 resist flask to deal with reflect, while totems do not. On my SWT character I ran 3 health flasks and 2 quicksilvers. Move speed up almost all the time. If I got hit it was because I ran into the center of a pack while casting totems which vaporized everything around me.

The other thing: mana leech is complete garbage right now anyways. Casters can't use it effectively. Totems work great with EB/ZO (mana pool all reserved for auras with SWT) or just use blood magic node if you don't need auras. Self-cast is relatively screwed by comparison. Totem mana management is easier because you don't have to cast them continuously, saving a bunch of points which otherwise get dumped in mana/regen nodes.

Self-cast spell tree needs: life, mana, mana regen, crit (if you're going that way, which you probably are if you want DPS), any other points into damage of your element of choice if you can spare any, which you probably can't.

Totem casting tree gets: life, damage, any totem nodes that happen to be nearby (not that you really need them, they just happen to be more efficient than spell nodes a lot of the time), AB keystone. Then dump the rest in defenses.

Lack of leech strikes me as a pretty irrelevant downside, as basically all ranged characters are unable to take advantage of leech to begin with.

"

MoLoK13 wrote:

Plus, compare a totem to a self-cast build: self-cast needs to run at least 1 resist flask to deal with reflect, while totems do not. On my SWT character I ran 3 health flasks and 2 quicksilvers. Move speed up almost all the time. If I got hit it was because I ran into the center of a pack while casting totems which vaporized everything around me.

I guess your build's better than mine then. If I ran into a pack in a very high level map I wouldn't be potting my way out of that. Then again...

"

MoLoK13 wrote:

Lack of leech strikes me as a pretty irrelevant downside, as basically all ranged characters are unable to take advantage of leech to begin with.

...not sure if I'm falling into a troll bait.

I get where the OP is coming from and kinda agree, there could/should be some kind of downside, and in theory the 'bond' part could lend itself to the caster sharing some (obviously a tiny %, maybe for example a % of damage taken when totems go low life) of the damage taken by the totems. This damage could even be taken as mana. Anyway, just some ideas of the top of my head, surely someone could do better.
However, despite considering totems a bit too safe and boring I am enjoying the return of different types of totem builds (thanks to the very well thought out buffs to spell totem and ranged totem gems and the maybe op rain of splinters jewel). I love theorycrafting and simply the fact that dual totems of any type have once again become viable (but not op) is great for variety in the game (even if it is totems...).
Any nerf to the node would have to not change this situation, but simply be a factor to be considered during play or making a build, ie paying more attention to totem defenses. A downside that would not be game breaking, but would mean that the keystone would need some kind of care/investment/second thought.

I think the OP paints a generally true picture of the FT leveling experience, while at the same time I agree with those saying totems really become lacklustre in high maps. These aren't contradictory statements; totems start off extremely strong (making them great for leveling) and lose steam rather steadily, until by the time you get to high maps they're probably underpowered.

That said, I don't feel like Ancestral Bond is particularly overpowered itself, because speccing into it might be temporarily strong, but you pretty much know you're going to eventually Regret it (literally). If you're deliberately spending points you know you'll spec out of later for temporary power, I think that's good gameplay, not an overpowered feature.

In essence, FT is PoE's noob tube. And noob tubes are actually good design, giving low-skill players a method to compete with the big dogs, but ensuring they'll eventually drop it for something more appropriate.