The map level renaming and exp penalty rework are disrespectful to players

This talk by Johnathan Blow (creator of Braid and other games) serves as the basis for how I feel about this.

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Chris wrote:

There are 15 tiers of maps, from level 68 to 82 inclusive. We've struggled for ages with the confusion caused by this. Players expect to play maps of their level (which can be way too hard for them), or make arguments about that they're level 95+ and can't find a level 80 map. Players with backgrounds in contemporary MMORPGs expect to play content equivalent to their level.

I understand this as Chris saying that players don't understand GGG's expectations of how map levels are supposed to be approached. Rather than clarifying what their expectations are (how long do you expect us to do 75 maps for? 78? 80? etc), GGG added a layer of obfuscation. Now in addition to monster levels we also have tiers. In the video Johnathan gives an example of how MS points are sold at 800/$10 to make the arithmetic harder, so you think about it less. I think this is the same thing that GGG is doing here, and it's insulting to people who are trying to master the game. Rather than creating more depth for us, obfuscation simply makes what's there already take longer to discover.

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Chris wrote:

Due to the increased levels of content in The Awakening and the ever-improving skill of our best players, people are reaching level 100 too quickly. Watching the intense challenge as players complete to reach this amazing accomplishment would be more fun for the community if it lasted longer. We want to make this change without affecting the regular levelling process.

This is the classic ARPG cop out, when you run out of content, just make the grind twice as long. GGG is literally saying that if you are someone for whom 100 was one of the last frontiers in this game, they don't really care about you. In fact they're just happy to waste more of your time (see Johnathan Blow's discussion about the developer respecting the player). What's even worse, GGG decided to renege on what they already gave us because they underestimated us ('ever-improving skill'). If you under estimated your best players, why not think of a challenge that they can do AFTER achieving 100, instead of making them spend 2-3x more time doing something they've already proven they can do? That's going to be even less of a challenge as their skill improves further.

I've always had mixed feelings about GGG. On the one hand they've created an amazing universe. On the other hand they have made much of it about grinding. Whether this game appeals to an individual depends on how sensitive they are to the pain of the grind, or to what extent they can 'make their own fun' ignoring the grind. I'm a player who is very grind tolerant, but this post and some other posts about 'data-driven design decisions' make me more more and aware that I'm being thought of someone to be monetized rather than someone to entertain.

Yeah, damned GGG for being disrespectful to their player-base changing the mapping system based on feedback and data gathered.

clearly they don't give a fuck about people wanting to reach lvl 100, which is why they are changing the system for these players, because no fucks where a given and no thought was put into it.

Such disrespect.

1) obfuscation :

This change is being done for the mental gymnastics players do when tackling maps.

It's funny how you ignore the increased map drops overall and the experience gain difference though.

2) reaching lvl 100 :

So GGG is providing an increased value of fame and making the goal harder to achieve (which conversely results into a greater sense of accomplishment when completed) while simultaneously opening up the map pool for these players and providing more content for casual players.

Such disrespect.

How dare they increase the grind of what is the pinnacle of time investment in PoE while simultaneously increasing content for everybody not interested in this achievement.

Peace,

-Boem-

so you don't think it's misleading for a player to level from 1 to 60 always doing areas of the same level and then at 60 it suddenly switches and you do area level 70 instances with your level 80 char?

you see no discrepancy by the fact that a char can be level 100 but area levels only go to 82?

to make a clear cut at a point where characters aren't supposed to be at the same level as their area is the right decision and long overdue.

First of all you need to watch around 10 minutes of that talk with an open mind to really understand why I feel the way I do about this. Second of all, if you tried pushing into 96+ in 1.3- or 2.0+ I think you would understand me better as well.

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Boem wrote:

It's funny how you ignore the increased map drops overall and the experience gain difference though.

They didn't say anything about making 79-82 drop more. What they simply did was reduce the experienced gained. Same risk less reward. If the developer thinks they can arbitrarily take away rewards from players without giving anything back is fundamentally disrespectful. If all of a sudden you told your employer you will only work 3 days a week instead of 5, but expect to get paid the same, that would be disrespectful and you'd get sacked. The fact that GGG can do this to us and expects to retain us is abusive.

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Boem wrote:

So GGG is providing an increased value of fame and making the goal harder to achieve (which conversely results into a greater sense of accomplishment when completed) while simultaneously opening up the map pool for these players and providing more content for casual players.

How dare they increase the grind of what is the pinnacle of time investment in PoE while simultaneously increasing content for everybody not interested in this achievement.

95+ is not going to be harder to achieve than before, only more tedious. Those of us who do push into the high 90s basically play builds that crush everything and die only if 3+ rare events align. There's no other way to do it, a build that requires skill won't make it into the high 90s because there'll be lapses in focus that cost too much.

Opening up the map pool is meaningless for anyone pushing 95+. We've literally run every 75+ map 30+ times. The fact that GGG thinks we should run them even more is ridiculous.

100 is still a accomplishment. I haven't done it yet and I've played several high budget amazing builds. Making 100 take longer is GGG saying we really think 100 will give the player so much utility, we're ok making them spend and additional 2weeks of their life they can never get back to get it. This is simply false, getting 100 just gives you 1pt and a empty feeling of "what do I do now?" This is a design and content problem, and GGG's solution is a cop out.

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vio wrote:

so you don't think it's misleading for a player to level from 1 to 60 always doing areas of the same level and then at 60 it suddenly switches and you do area level 70 instances with your level 80 char?

you see no discrepancy by the fact that a char can be level 100 but area levels only go to 82?

to make a clear cut at a point where characters aren't supposed to be at the same level as their area is the right decision and long overdue.

No, because I understood exactly what was going on from having played D2. All GGG needed to do was clarify what they expect players to do. Renaming map levels to tiers doesn't change the fact that we have no idea about expectations of what maps we're supposed to play in.

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MatrixFactor wrote:

They didn't say anything about making 79-82 drop more. What they simply did was reduce the experienced gained. Same risk less reward. If the developer thinks they can arbitrarily take away rewards from players without giving anything back is fundamentally disrespectful. If all of a sudden you told your employer you will only work 3 days a week instead of 5, but expect to get paid the same, that would be disrespectful and you'd get sacked. The fact that GGG can do this to us and expects to retain us is abusive.

I read that drop rates are being increased in the manifesto. That obviously will affect high tier maps.

38+ pages at this time on the manifesto of mostly negative feedback about map tiers... i think GGG have noticed.

whether they care... yet to be seen.

as for leveling changes i think they are just worried if they dont make it harder they will have 15,000 characters on standard at level 100 and no new player will ever see the ladder again there.

I think you need to relax and read the manifesto again.

1) map drops are getting increased
2) physical damage and act4 monsters are being looked at

Both of these enable "easier xp gains" overall.

reducing the experience gap between maps also makes "lower" level maps more potent in comparison. Instead of the "all i can run is 82 maps now" we will see a shift to players being happier to run 78-82 brackets, since the difference is smaller.

This in return increases different tile-sets being run and increases content in the upper echelon.

A 35% more experience gain, coupled with ambush boxes and magic packs made everything other then 82 chains feel redundant in the current game-state.

It was also a HUGE chunk of experience compared to previous game states.
It was never so easy to chain to 100 and that was a flaw that needed correcting.

So your conclusion of

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MatrixFactor wrote:

What they simply did was reduce the experienced gained. Same risk less reward.

is inaccurate and only a partial picture.

I could quote you more where your making logical flaws, but really there is no reason to drag it out like that.

Peace,

-Boem-

OP, read the title of your thread: Get over yourself.

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bwam wrote:

OP, read the title of your thread: Get over yourself.

You should watch the video and keep an open mind. This is a topic about the relationship between developer/gamer and isn't obvious. It's actually funny Johnathan predicts this kind of defensive feedback by gamers about abusive games.

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Boem wrote:

I think you need to relax and read the manifesto again.

1) map drops are getting increased
2) physical damage and act4 monsters are being looked at

Both of these enable "easier xp gains" overall.

reducing the experience gap between maps also makes "lower" level maps more potent in comparison. Instead of the "all i can run is 82 maps now" we will see a shift to players being happier to run 78-82 brackets, since the difference is smaller.

This in return increases different tile-sets being run and increases content in the upper echelon.

A 35% more experience gain, coupled with ambush boxes and magic packs made everything other then 82 chains feel redundant in the current game-state.

It was also a HUGE chunk of experience compared to previous game states.
It was never so easy to chain to 100 and that was a flaw that needed correcting.

If you think I made logical flaws, or that I'm thinking about this in a incorrect way please point it out. Preferably from the PoV of someone trying to hit L100 or at least 96-97.

Monster damage is irrelevant to anyone going for L100. The only thing that anyone dies to these days is flame/storm/frost bearers. Once again, the reason is that to get L100 you need a build that doesn't care about damage AND has good clear speed. Lowering monster damage won't radically improve clear speed because the deciding factor is map/currency/group availability, and not clear speed.

Currently everyone does 80-82 maps even at L99. I don't think anyone in that group of people would want to sacrifice L82 experience for the ability to run a few more tilesets at lower experience. We're just being punished by GGG because they think they can hammer their most dedicated players, that's disrespectful IMO.

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MatrixFactor wrote:

Currently everyone does 80-82 maps even at L99. I don't think anyone in that group of people would want to sacrifice L82 experience for the ability to run a few more tilesets at lower experience. We're just being punished by GGG because they think they can hammer their most dedicated players, that's disrespectful IMO.

You seem to forget that only one league ago people where chaining 78 maps to reach lvl 100.

Now as somebody that has experience going past lvl 95 i assume you know how the experience penalty's work in PoE and understand the drastic increase in xp availability because of upping the map tiers by 4 levels?

Simply put, only one league passed with the 82 maps and your already feeling entitled to that progression rate.

Rightfully so, GGG is nipping it in the but now, before it deludes the perception of more people further.

This is the correct move to do, it isn't disrespectful.

If anything, they are demonstrating a respect to the people who already attained lvl 100 in the old system when it took a lot longer.

Not even going to mention the pre act3x xp rates to reach lvl 100....

But have at it, make a fist and wave it in the air if that settles you down.

But please don't fool yourself that GGG is punishing their top players, the increase in map levels was and remains a major buff to lvl 100 progression.

Peace,

-Boem-