Should map bosses be able to deal critical hits?

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Vipermagi wrote:

For its time, Vaal Oversoul was amazing. However, average movement rate has vastly increased and attack speeds have more than doubled since then because Multistrike was a terrible fucking idea, so the Oversoul is easier than the Asylum Demon now.

Well, multistrike is kind of counter-productive when it comes to manually dodging since it overall increases the amount of time you spend rooted to the ground.

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Boem wrote:

The issue at hand is "do you reward player skill and punish player error" vs "do you just punish players, sometimes, while providing no challenge 99% of the time"

I'm very careful with the use of the word "skill" in ARPGs.
If I want "skill", I choose another genre (ideally PVP based).

ARPG for me is exactly this: "no challenge 99% of the time".
That's what you build for, what you gear for, and PoE has taken it to an extreme:
Mindlessly slaughtering screens full of monsters in splitseconds.

I don't see the occasional death trap as "punishment".

Stuff like this has to be in the game, players need to get killed sometimes, and the only way to do it right is: when they are not expecting it and have no time to react.

(I'm not talking strongbox lags and desynch deaths here, but the boss crits, "corrupted bloodline"+"other allies cannot die" combinations etc.)

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Vipermagi wrote:

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Boem wrote:

I am playing evasion/acro/fortify with full up-time on jade flasks and granite flasks if required.
So yes, in reality, taking that extra bit of armor/endurance charges for flat reduction does actually constitute "taking all the defenses the game offers" apart from item-based coil/taste of hate.

Energy Shield
Determination
Grace?
Enfeeble
Belt of the Deceiver
Unyielding (but that is entirely forgivable)
Endurance Charges
Lightning Coil/Cloak of Flame
Taste of Hate
Arctic Armour
Mind over Matter
Stun (different setup)
Manual evasion (depending on boss; also Temporal Chains + Chilled Ground)
I assume your Granites have a decent Iron Skin roll at least

Yep, ECharges are definitely just about everything you could *possibly* do.
Sure, these are not always the most practical options, but they are options nontheless.

I think you forgot

- kaoms heart
- 350% life
- block%
- playing ranged
- play white maps
- calling somebody else to finish the boss
- git gud scrub

In your list.



Peace,

-Boem-

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Peterlerock wrote:

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Boem wrote:

The issue at hand is "do you reward player skill and punish player error" vs "do you just punish players, sometimes, while providing no challenge 99% of the time"

I'm very careful with the use of the word "skill" in ARPGs.
If I want "skill", I choose another genre (ideally PVP based).

ARPG for me is exactly this: "no challenge 99% of the time".
That's what you build for, what you gear for, and PoE has taken it to an extreme:
Mindlessly slaughtering screens full of monsters in splitseconds.

I don't see the occasional death trap as "punishment".

Stuff like this has to be in the game, players need to get killed sometimes, and the only way to do it right is: when they are not expecting it and have no time to react.

(I'm not talking strongbox lags and desynch deaths here, but the boss crits, "corrupted bloodline"+"other allies cannot die" combinations etc.)

completely disagree with the bolted part.

And i used skill to oppose "player error", if you wish to call it "correct sequence of player action" i am fine with that.

Peace,

-Boem-

I wrote it like this because there's too much stuff in this game to make a player invulnerable.
Instant pots, resists beyond 75%, immortal call etc.

How do you die in this game?

1. I very rarely die because I am attempting content too hard for me (like "running around with 2.5k HP in maps is just not enough as melee").

2. I die quite often stupidly to 100% avoidable stuff. Not noticing bleed effects and keep walking, not even trying to dodge Kole's Slams etc.

3. I die to "game issues" like strongbox or map freezes.

4. And I die because I don't react fast enough in very dangerous situations that don't happen too often, can't press my health button fast enough against some crazy boosted blue damagedealers, collect too many stacks of corrupted blood too fast, fail to notice a curse over my head, don't see the "reflect" sign etc.
With perfect reactions and "skill", those are all avoidable, but it can happen freaking fast.
Those are the deaths that feel like "punishments" to some players (according to feedback board).
But I like them. That's how you should get killed.

If those deathtraps were removed from the game, I think it would be too easy.

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Boem wrote:

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Mannoth wrote:

4.5k life is too low no matter the defenses.

I would aim at 5.5k minimum, 6k+ preferred for high level maps.

This was about a colonnade map (lvl 73) which isn't yet high tier maps. Without damage modifiers to boot.

Anyway, seems not many people care or think it's a relevant issue for overall balance and game design.

Peace,

-Boem-

Carnage hits aren't meant to be tanked, with 15k armor and 4 endurance charges + fortify he still deals somewhat high damage with his slam so i just use whirling blades through him to make him miss me.

With some builds i run enfeeble / temp chain curses for exactly these kind of bosses, they sometimes make them really trivial.

You aren't running enough defense mechanism because you stacked on mechanisms that do not compliment each other.

For example, my character has the following going for it for defenses:
* Runs 4 endurance charges (gonna be 5 later)
* Runs fortify
* 5k armor without granite, 15k with flask (surgeons also)
* 5k evasion without jade, 14k with flask
* 3% life regen (4.5% later)
* 8 attacks per second with 40% crit chance and cold damage to freeze most monsters
* almost 5k life atm
* Has leech via warlord mark which is linked on CWDT and another one which is linked to Curse on Hit with dual heralds

So my defenses compliment each other, hits that get through my evasion are mitigated by 15k armor and 4 endurance charges + fortify, and after that my regen, leech and flasks help me regain that health fast.

And it even deals solid dps, i am at 65k dps without frenzy charges and that is with a 5L.

What you have is:
* Evasion
* Dodge
* Low armor & low endurance charges
* Fortify
* Vaal Pact probably

So you get big spikes of damage which sometimes pass through your layer of defense and you do not have enough reductions for when that happens.
On my evasion chars i run Enfeeble on CWDT because it solves a lot of the bad points evasion & acro has.

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Vipermagi wrote:

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Boem wrote:

A clear sign that primary defenses are failing, when Vipermagi actually list's T1 unique's to beat a 73 map boss. And doesn't flinch while doing so and is in fact serious.

And it's listed right next to a tier ten Unique. Shut the fuck up.

The primary point of this thread is to state that high spike damage is a severe issue to build diversity.

If you don't comprehend why your post's do nothing to disprove that fact, be my guest.

All that your post's did where confirm that sentiment.

And i ridiculed your post since you ridiculed mine. Fair is fair. You take some, you lose some.

so? Shut the fuck up eh?

@mannoth i am just listing an example, which is irrelevant to the underlying point i am making. I don't need any build advice or mechanical know-how on defensive layers or set-ups.

I made full immunity builds, i know how it all works. That doesn't imply it's good for the game to only allow full immunity or "close to" builds to perform in the end-game.

Not when a core selling points is "build diversity".

@peterlocker, to sum up a counter argument to what you posted

"critical hits don't have a visual indicator"

If they had, this thread would not exist.

Peace,

-Boem-

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Vipermagi wrote:

I "ridiculed" your post because you were grossly overstating your efforts in mitigation; Fort plus half a Granite is not going to be enough to tank a notoriously hard-hitting boss. Deal with it. If your only way to respond to that is exaggeration or a personal insult, then I'm done here. There is no discussion to be had.
In short: Yes.

I said i use acro/phase acro/ fortify/ jade + granite full up-time/evasion

Your correct in saying only fortify/granite is effective when a hit passes, your not correct in saying it is my only defensive investment. Since it's not. . .

My evasion at lvl 86 list's at 55% with my buffs up.

your conveniently discarding investment in defenses that have no utility in this specific case("hit lands") to make a point?

Apart from the fact my build is not really in question here, the underlying principle that people
theory-craft against the upper spikes of damage resulting in a very narrow build diversity is.

Peace,

-Boem-

edit : if i wanted "help" with my build, the thread tittle would be different, would it not?

I know of all defenses you listed and the tricks.(and the ones you did not list)

And all they do is prove my point that main defenses utterly fail at this point.