Should map bosses be able to deal critical hits?

@rockstopper i never said they shouldn't be allowed to apply status ailments for example.

Removing crit alone would be pretty poor, but only because it would reveal how easy the bosses currently are from a design perspective.

If the only "thrill" stems from a russian roulette feeling of "a crit might happen, this time!" then something is seriously wrong with the boss fight as a whole.

Further more if a boss poses no threat other then "crit + modifiers" again i would pose it only reveals an underlying issue.

The thrill should be "boss + modifiers".

As to your defense vs offense argument. This is only meaningful if a choice is presented.

If the choice becomes "take it all" then it is merely the illusion of a choice being presented.

Obviously a glass canon should perish against these encounter, which is what your argument aims at i imagine?

But this is faulty, since a semi tank char is equally likely to die in the current game state. If your not stacking layer upon layer upon layer of defense in the current end-game your a goner.

If a multitude of choices becomes = take all. It is no longer a multitude of choices, right?

Peace,

-Boem-

edit : @gilrad i disagree with the comparison with corrupted blood.

This is visually explained to the player it is going to happen and can be countered easily.

A crit has no visual "tell" so a player cannot adjust for it.

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Vipermagi wrote:

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Boem wrote:

I take damage -> i heal it back up before the next attack. This can be a high amount upwards of 80% of my hp.
That's irrelevant though, it only means my character is able to deal with the boss, up until that Russian roulette comes around the corner for that "one in a million".
Your suggestions just prove my initial point.

It's closer to one in thirty.

You need a whopping 5% DR or 5% more Life to survive that oh-so-deadly Crit that you know can happen. A single Endurance Charge or any one of the Crit Damage reduction modifiers would do it. Getting one single Endurance Charge on top of your current defenses hardly constitutes "take all defenses".

How does my listing Crit Mult Reductions prove anything? It proves you have multiple options to mitigate Crit deaths. If you want to entirely negate Crits, then yes, you'd need everything. However, even just one of three makes a very noticable difference.

I am playing evasion/acro/fortify with full up-time on jade flasks and granite flasks if required.

So yes, in reality, taking that extra bit of armor/endurance charges for flat reduction does actually constitute "taking all the defenses the game offers" apart from item-based coil/taste of hate.

And i am at 4500hp with those defenses.

And then you ultimately state that i should add another layer of defense on-top of the proposed damage reduction/endurance charges(crit reduction nodes/gear)

On-top of the evasion/acro+phase acro/fortify and granite/jade permanent up-time.

"ok".

Not sure what your end-game is at this point though. Is it to disprove my initial argument that a player requires "take all" vs spike damages that are surely going to come around?

And that in a "take all" scenario defenses lose there inherent meaning since there is only the illusion of choice?

On what basis are you stating the

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Vipermagi wrote:

You need a whopping 5% DR or 5% more Life to survive that oh-so-deadly Crit that you know can happen. A single Endurance Charge or any one of the Crit Damage reduction modifiers would do it. Getting one single Endurance Charge on top of your current defenses hardly constitutes "take all defenses".

When it is in fact the only defensive form i am currently not utilizing directly?(that and arctic armor since i am cyclone)

Color me confused.

Peace,

-Boem-

4.5k life is too low no matter the defenses.

I would aim at 5.5k minimum, 6k+ preferred for high level maps.

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Mannoth wrote:

4.5k life is too low no matter the defenses.

I would aim at 5.5k minimum, 6k+ preferred for high level maps.

This was about a colonnade map (lvl 73) which isn't yet high tier maps. Without damage modifiers to boot.

Anyway, seems not many people care or think it's a relevant issue for overall balance and game design.

Peace,

-Boem-

Hi Boem,

I think you and others have already attacked the core issue with this whole "get oneshot or no problem" thing that is the current state of mid- to high-tier mapping.

The real issue is imho not crit, or rather not crit on its own, but the whole lot of interactions that can happen. Beyond a certain player-level, maybe about 85, and a certain map-bosslvl, between 73 and 75 depending on the respective boss, stuff is simply spiraling out of controlable and balanceable territory. Just look at Aegis builds for example. Imagine 5k life, 1k ES, 20k armour, increased maxresistance and 75% block/50% spellblock. How can such a character ever die? Well, have a hard-hitting boss, have shocked ground, have the player be cursed with Vulnerability and Ele-weakness, have a boss crit them and hope they don´t block. Because if the char blocks they will survive until the next blue-moon-scenario occurs.
Or imagine on the other hand Necropolis, double boss, 3 additional projectiles, increased monster AoE, fleet, turboboss, 330/30 monster crit, tempchains.

The former is a result of the latter but also the other way around. Not only are bosses in the worst-case scenario simply ridiculous which forces players to build either for ridiculous defence OR offence (which IS viable after a certain point) but player characters can be so extremely overpowered that there is no choice but to add ridiculous bosses and interactions to the game to present ANY challenge and danger to them.

The system is already at a point where it cannot be changed unless endgame is changed fundamentally. If you were to remove crit from map bosses and leave everything else the way it is, how would you kill the above Aegis build? And how would you deal with Shocked Ground which does basically the same as crit in certain situations, like double-turbo double-kole?

The problem is broader than crit...


regards

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Boem wrote:

Anyway, seems not many people care or think it's a relevant issue for overall balance and game design.

Nah, man, we're just saying you're chasing a cutpurse in a city ran by gangs and drug cartels.

"Should map bosses be able to deal critical hits?"

Hell yeah!
Anything that gets players killed is a good thing.

Even with crazy defenses, this game will find some situation or combination of random stuff to murder you. Boss crits are one of those.
And that's great.

(I feel the same about people crying that some boss fights are unpredictable clusterfucks.
So what? They are at least trying to kill you!
On the other hand, the "well balanced" Vaal machine that so many people seem to like has the worst boss design ever, imho. All telegraphed, every single piece of damage easily avoidable... He's not even trying to murder you, he's doin g a litte dance number)

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raics wrote:

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Boem wrote:

Anyway, seems not many people care or think it's a relevant issue for overall balance and game design.

Nah, man, we're just saying you're chasing a cutpurse in a city ran by gangs and drug cartels.

I'll be in the corner chasing the dragon then.

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Peterlerock wrote:

"Should map bosses be able to deal critical hits?"

Hell yeah!
Anything that gets players killed is a good thing.

Even with crazy defenses, this game will find some situation or combination of random stuff to murder you. Boss crits are one of those.
And that's great.

(I feel the same about people crying that some boss fights are unpredictable clusterfucks.
So what? They are at least trying to kill you!
On the other hand, the "well balanced" Vaal machine that so many people seem to like has the worst boss design ever, imho. All telegraphed, every single piece of damage easily avoidable... He's not even trying to murder you, he's doin g a litte dance number)

The issue at hand is "do you reward player skill and punish player error" vs "do you just punish players, sometimes, while providing no challenge 99% of the time"

@Azdrubel, yes i am very much aware of the things you wrote down. I am also not saying "just remove crit from bosses" without actually revising boss fights as a whole.

I don't really view these things in vacuums, i know the interactions at play here and i also think one has to "get creative" if you wish to address the underlying issue.
(a poor designed power paradigm which makes balancing properly impossible, which in return punishes and negatively impacts the player-experience as a whole)

But thanks for the read sir, was cool.

Peace,

-Boem-