The fun's disappeared. Why GGG?

"

Frankenberry wrote:

1) As already mentioned Enlighten is meant as an endgame option, not a necessity.

Yes... Where exactly did you think I was at? So by endgame, you mean 'don't bother'? Or... that GGG shouldn't bother doing anything for players at that stage? *scratches head*

"

2) They don't nerf anything that is remotely useful. They slightly tweak things that are to strong and potentially game breaking to keep the game fresh.

Just... lol. I'm going to mark this up to perhaps English not being your first language ? Otherwise, I can't follow the reasoning that they don't nerf useful things - reduced mana says hi. And EB/MOM... Heck, a list could take all day.

"

If you are getting 1-shot then stop building a glass canon?

DC'ing? I DC'ed once during warbands league. Maybe you should take a good hard look at your internet connection?

I don't know where you've been, but the rest of us have suffered a lot of map losses due to DCs. It's a thing, read around and you'll see a few rage posts about it. As for 6.7k character being a glass cannon... Wow. You have some interesting standards.

I get that the new meta is build stupid amounts of defences and try and walk a perfect line. It's very limiting, hence 'the fun has disappeared'.

I also get your comment that I should play 'start-again' leagues all the time, I really do. Thing is, I can start again in any new game and have it feel fresh. Difference is - my progress in most of those games will be there any time I want to pick em back up. Just chock it up to you like restarting (a classic roguelike approach) and I don't. For the same reason I never completed Angband.

"

davidnn5 wrote:

"

Frankenberry wrote:

1) As already mentioned Enlighten is meant as an endgame option, not a necessity.

Yes... Where exactly did you think I was at? So by endgame, you mean 'don't bother'? Or... that GGG shouldn't bother doing anything for players at that stage? *scratches head*

"

2) They don't nerf anything that is remotely useful. They slightly tweak things that are to strong and potentially game breaking to keep the game fresh.

Just... lol. I'm going to mark this up to perhaps English not being your first language ? Otherwise, I can't follow the reasoning that they don't nerf useful things - reduced mana says hi. And EB/MOM... Heck, a list could take all day.

"

If you are getting 1-shot then stop building a glass canon?

DC'ing? I DC'ed once during warbands league. Maybe you should take a good hard look at your internet connection?

I don't know where you've been, but the rest of us have suffered a lot of map losses due to DCs. It's a thing, read around and you'll see a few rage posts about it. As for 6.7k character being a glass cannon... Wow. You have some interesting standards.

I get that the new meta is build stupid amounts of defences and try and walk a perfect line. It's very limiting, hence 'the fun has disappeared'.

I also get your comment that I should play 'start-again' leagues all the time, I really do. Thing is, I can start again in any new game and have it feel fresh. Difference is - my progress in most of those games will be there any time I want to pick em back up. Just chock it up to you like restarting (a classic roguelike approach) and I don't. For the same reason I never completed Angband.

I am gonna address some of your points below.

"I'm not psyched to be levelling another enlighten just to I can eventually spec one of my characters."

Aura builds were broken. Everybody knows and his dog knows it. They are still very strong. Even without enlighten. Its a tweak to a certain play style. If you really wan't to min / max a character, then of course you have to put some effort into it (Y x quality 20% enlighten gems - they should be level 3 in no time). Its a fundamentally healthy change for the game as a whole.

"Just... lol. I'm going to mark this up to perhaps English not being your first language ? Otherwise, I can't follow the reasoning that they don't nerf useful things - reduced mana says hi. And EB/MOM... Heck, a list could take all day."

I am gonna mark up your first sentence up to you being blatantly rude and slightly ignorant? Otherwise I can't follow the reasoning for such a comment. Anyways:

These forums are so filled with constant whining every time GGG makes a slight change, the reaction here is completely over the top. "omfg they nerfed map drops" ... I chain run lvl 76+ maps. "omfg they nerfed Atziri's acuity". Its still BiS for many builds and a very powerful item. "omfg they nerfed this. Omfg they nerfed that. My life is ruined and everyone should agree!!!". Just try to stop up for two seconds before joining the bandwagon and ask yourself two questions about nerfs to this game:

1) Are these changes (or nerfs if you prefer) overall better for the game?
2) Do these changes make a certain play style impossible?

The answer to the first question has - in my opinion - been yes in almost every single case out there. I cannot even think of one case in which the answer is no.

To the second. It is very rare that they nerf a playstyle in such a way it becomes impossible to play it anymore. They make changes and tweaks to the game. Sometimes small changes (and people still go completely berserk) and sometimes big changes. Is reduced mana nerfed into the ground? Nope. Aura builds are still going strong. MOM / EB. Well its true. This playstyle is gone. For now. Is it better for the game? Imho yeah since almost all casters were pigeonholed into MOM / EB. It was way to strong. Simple as that.

"As for 6.7k character being a glass cannon... Wow. You have some interesting standards."

Ever heard the term "flesh-tank"? If your only defense is 6,7k (which it is - besides fortify), then you are not very tanky. Not tanky enough for endgame maps at least. Thats for sure. You can be very tanky with 6,7k hp or even less hp. You just have to use other defenses as well! Endurance charges, block, dodge, armor, lightning coil and so on.

For instance my current character has 7k hp, but have a few other defenses that helps on top of that (being ranged instead of melee helps a lot and dodge is rather nice). If I was melee I would for sure stack 6+ endurance charges.

Also its nothing new that you need to build tanky to reach those high levels. At least a way more efficient way to reach lvl 95+ is to be very tanky. Always been like that. You can still do 78+ maps with a offensive build (for instance a bow user with Maligaro's and Rat's Nest). But you will die from time to time.

About the DC thing. I have been playing a lot the for the last two weeks. Don't know whats up with that. Maybe I am just lucky. None of my friends had any issues as well.

About the warbands / standard league thing. If you try to start over in a new league (give the next one a shot if you feel like it), you will discover you will quickly close the gab between your standard league progress and your new league. It is really not that bad.

Anyways gl.

"

Frankenberry wrote:

Is reduced mana nerfed into the ground? Nope. Aura builds are still going strong. MOM / EB. Well its true. This playstyle is gone. For now. Is it better for the game? Imho yeah since almost all casters were pigeonholed into MOM / EB. It was way to strong. Simple as that.

So the response to overpowered things is to remove them from the game? Can't we just tune it down? I know the statement "removed from the game" is an exaggeration but that's what it looks like if you observe people's builds before and after the awakening. Are you seriously supporting GGG's decision to alienate a handful number of their customers?

"

Frankenberry wrote:

Ever heard the term "flesh-tank"? If your only defense is 6,7k (which it is - besides fortify), then you are not very tanky. Not tanky enough for endgame maps at least. Thats for sure. You can be very tanky with 6,7k hp or even less hp. You just have to use other defenses as well! Endurance charges, block, dodge, armor, lightning coil and so on.

So we should just throw specialization out the window? If everything and everyone's running around with a little bit of everything (armor,life,evasion,endurance charge) just because it was needed, what could be said about the "customization" and "diversity" this game is boasting about?

---------------

Sure the game is playable (and you are correct on that point), but that's not what the core of every arguments of every complain you are reading in this thread and other similar threads. The design of the game took a major turn, and the game itself felt different. That's the issue here.

"

mugwumpshasnoliver wrote:

"

Frankenberry wrote:

Is reduced mana nerfed into the ground? Nope. Aura builds are still going strong. MOM / EB. Well its true. This playstyle is gone. For now. Is it better for the game? Imho yeah since almost all casters were pigeonholed into MOM / EB. It was way to strong. Simple as that.

So the response to overpowered things is to remove them from the game? Can't we just tune it down? I know the statement "removed from the game" is an exaggeration but that's what it looks like if you observe people's builds before and after the awakening. Are you seriously supporting GGG's decision to alienate a handful number of their customers?

"

Frankenberry wrote:

Ever heard the term "flesh-tank"? If your only defense is 6,7k (which it is - besides fortify), then you are not very tanky. Not tanky enough for endgame maps at least. Thats for sure. You can be very tanky with 6,7k hp or even less hp. You just have to use other defenses as well! Endurance charges, block, dodge, armor, lightning coil and so on.

So we should just throw specialization out the window? If everything and everyone's running around with a little bit of everything (armor,life,evasion,endurance charge) just because it was needed, what could be said about the "customization" and "diversity" this game is boasting about?

---------------

Sure the game is playable (and you are correct on that point), but that's not what the core of every arguments of every complain you are reading in this thread and other similar threads. The design of the game took a major turn, and the game itself felt different. That's the issue here.

Don't complain man, take advice from franken, the guy playing a cheese build (OP tornado)to beat maps easily. Just play fotm and you'll be totally fine /sarcasm

"

mugwumpshasnoliver wrote:

So we should just throw specialization out the window? If everything and everyone's running around with a little bit of everything (armor,life,evasion,endurance charge) just because it was needed, what could be said about the "customization" and "diversity" this game is boasting about?

This is a good point. Many people have commented that we need layered defenses in 2.0, which most of my toons have (but often isn't good enough). It seems like defense specialization, however, has become unviable. Such as pure armor, pure evasion, pure energy shield - even if we build up a ton of one of those and have a high life pool it's not really an endgame option anymore. Even worse, I think too many builds rely on gimmicky defenses (taste of hate, lightning coil, etc).

We're getting a little left of field here, to the usual 'learn to play' theme of the forum. Remember, I was talking about fun, not necessarily oneshots. For me, it's just as much or more to do with map pool, bizarre changes etc.

But here's a little fuel for the fire.

My last 5 'one-shots':
1. 13 Flicker striking thornflesh spiders. Wander in a room, right click and die. Oops.
2. Bameth pops up among a huge amount of screen clutter and immediately uses vaal detonate dead. Legit oneshot. No defences necessary or particularly useful.
3. Heralds of the obelisk - 14 obelisks pop up and cast ball lightning. Legit oneshot here too. Coulda stacked a billion armour and 400 endurance charges and it wouldn't have changed a thing.
4. Corrupted blood in a double damage mod 79.
5. Ditto. Neither of these were exactly oneshots, but with one other party member and herald of ash, I simply couldn't see the rare and it took all of half a second to bleed out. Cause that's how CB is tuned (bizarrely) - based not just on stacks but mob dmg to calculate dmg per stack. And this is with me deliberately nerfing my own damage back. Fun!

Of course people will say 'just keep these 17 different gems on swap for every situation and detonate every corpse per map and use etc etc' or 'you know the game does this, therefore it shouldn't be that annoying'. But the truth is, while I've never begrudged a death to, say, courtyard bosses (because it's a well designed fight and takes some thought), I've always begrudged a cheap death, and a oneshot fits that bill nicely. CB less so, but like many things in this game, with the right combo of mods it goes from a smart man's game to avoid to just staring at a screen wondering what happened.

The worst, of course, is when your cycloner gets stuck on a pebble and dies to flicker strikers, not that that's happened for a good long while. But it sure sticks in the craw.

"

Frankenberry wrote:

"As for 6.7k character being a glass cannon... Wow. You have some interesting standards."

Ever heard the term "flesh-tank"? If your only defense is 6,7k (which it is - besides fortify), then you are not very tanky. Not tanky enough for endgame maps at least. Thats for sure. You can be very tanky with 6,7k hp or even less hp. You just have to use other defenses as well! Endurance charges, block, dodge, armor, lightning coil and so on.

You are wrong because many "oneshot" mechanics are not phys damage. For example Heralds of the Obelisk (totems with ball lightning). Lightning Coil won't help you with this one, neither will Endurance charges.

With current state of game, I die like once per 7 high level 78+ maps to some seriously retarded mechanic. Yes I do hard mods because I have to in order to maintain them. I'm not going to fall into 75 maps because it wouldn't change a damn thing. I would die anyway... maybe once per 25 maps. But it wouldn't make any difference because experience income would be way lower.

What irritates me most is that I can't do a damn thing about it... while I have will and resources to adapt but I just can't.

I'm CI based build (not going to change this one because it would be completely different build then plus I don't see any reason why this keystone shouldn't be viable aswell - WITHOUT MIRROR WORTHY ITEMS).

I have 8,5 ES, 81% fire resists, 75 and 76 ice and lightning resists. I stack 4 endurance charges. I run chaos golem and Arctic Armour.

I don't die to phys damage. I die to lags and shitty mechanics like groups of Porcupine Goliaths, Ball Lightning Obelisks etc. Lightning coil wouldn't help me with these...

Ah, Heralds of the Obelisk is a "oneshot mechanic" now. Well yeah, I guess if you mindlessly kill the mobs with their huge purple tag "Heralds of the Obelisk" and then stand inside the HUGE obelisk that spawn, it probably kills you. Sounds like a bug.

"

davidnn5 wrote:

- I haven't had a drop in the last 6 months that is of any real use.

Consequence of playing Standard league.

I've been throwing chisels and alchs on 72-74 maps (which I've never done before) praying for 73+ maps to drop, turbo, additional damage, ground effects, less regen (hurts me), curse immune (hurts me even more), fire res, EE, ele reflect (can very quickly reep me if I'm not super careful), BM... and guess what, nothing, when a double Jungle Valley boss with turbo and additional damage on a mothereffing burning ground doesn't drop anything, but a level 71, the map system is pretty broken. Except that 2.0 has been fun.