The 3 Pillars Endgame Model - Permanent fix of the map endgame system

About 2 years ago from now I started to figure out that the mapping system of PoE is by default not capable of satisfying player needs and by itself not able to work perfectly as it should.

Recent happenings and complaint about maps in 2.0 prove this once again and encourage me to give example for the 3 pillar endgame model that I was talking of like 2 years ago again:


Problem:
Maps gate maps. If one has no maps he can't get new maps. If one can't get new maps he can't play maps. Etc and the other way round. Can one normal lvl human brain try to at least understand that the idea itself is incompatible with reality and could at best serve as a placeholder? A placeholder for many years, but still a placeholder in the final end I am sure.



Solution: The Three Pillars of PoE Endgame:


1. Single Maps (as usual)

- very rare map drops
- difficulty/risk controlable by roll
- itemdrop related to roll
- xp related to map/monster-lvl
- best xp per time (e.g. chaining only highest maps)
- most expensive


2. Higher but not highest lvl Zones (e.g. Zana is giving random missions over and over again without limit, lower level missions have to be done in order to proceed and occassionally getting higher ones then):

- good map drops
- low xp
- barely any extra rarity/quantity
- low - medium risk
- best xp per currency (free)


3. Connected areas of randomly rolled maps (I called it "players go on journey" once):

- very rare map drops
- best xp per currency + time
- item/currency drop depending on the random rolls (+ potential extra)
- highest risk due to random rolls




Now let me explain 3. a bit closer:

- It can be a set of maps/areas that you have to play in a row (e.g. 6 maps).

- There could be a fee instead of crafting costs to enter the whole thing (if needed at all).

- A single death within this encounter leads to not being able to get back into it.

- Players put 4 maps into the map device in order to create the encounter, they are going to play these 4 maps with random rolls and then additionally get 2 extra maps/zones that are above the invested 4 maps.

- Due to the fact that players have to play 6 maps in a row with random rolls they have extra risk. This is being rewarded with the 2 free maps of higher roll.

- Due to the fact that players can't go back to town inbetween the 6 maps, they are going to take way less items/alts back home as a reward.

- Due to the extra risk of random rolls, players are more likely to die.

- For all the extra risk and limited ability to extract items out of these 6 zones, players are granted 2 free maps.

- Additionally a reward for completing all 6 maps can be implemented: e.g. a new map or an item

It isn't allowed to start with 4 maps of the same lvl or 4 random maps. The inserted maps must always be a straight thing (e.g. 75, 76, 77, 78). The lowest inserted map will always come first and is followed by the second lowest and so on. The two free maps in the end will always be completing the straight upwards (in this example a 79 and 80).

This will replace boring map rotations of always the same zones completely. It makes players reasonably play lower level maps in order to reach the higher ones and get the free additional maps in the end.

This allows you (GGG) to give players access to higher zones (in this example the added free 79/80 maps) without having them drop and spawn all over the place and flood the market with them.

This does not encourage payers to insert only the higest tiers of maps, as a row of 77, 78, 79, 80 would induce a free follow up of 81 + 82 which is similar to the free reward of a row of 79, 80, 81, 82 (= free 82+82). This again a bit closes the gap between super rich players (who would gladly throw in 4x82 maps if they could) and not so rich ones. It will make players play lower level areas with a reason and not as a punishment (as it is now for lack of mapdrops of higher zones).



The 2nd pillar consisting of free random zana maps (their lvl needs to be adequate but not too high ofc):

- allows good map drops to take place.
- is an entry to endgame
- gives newer players something that others might need but are too lazy/strong to play (similar to the sacrifices system, it increases player interaction between poor and rich with the rich guys paying something to the poor guys for something they want/need).





I wont continue even tho there is much more to say. Don't like walls of text. Going to add more later.

Think about it!


p.s:

1. implementation time: 2-3 weeks

2. The only "flaw" or thing to figure out in this system still is how to allow players to maintain a certain pool of maps without forcing them to play too much zana all the time(e.g. lvl 90++) or trade for them with players who play alot of zana in the end. A complete new system of acquiring maps could be the solution. Maps could be handed to players for achieving certain things instead of letting them drop randomly on the ground only (e.g. new Zana quest: "bring me 1x 78 map with elemental reflect and fully clear it so that you get the reward of 2 new 78 maps" alterating with other similar things spread amongst all over the game in one or another way).

I would honestly talk to Chris about it via email as I think it's a suggestion that warrants a proper look at. Needless to say, I think it's a good solution.

The secret to the second column is the following:

Before 2.0: Zana max gave 76 regularily and if I remember right even sometimes 77 maps.
That was maybe a bit too much free stuff when considering that players were able to rotate and spam them reliably in/from global 820.


Now: Zana seems to only give low maps, I heared new 73 maps from zana 8. This equals old 71 maps.
This is nothing. Ppl who stated that its not even worth to lvl zana to 8 anymore are right then.



The Solution:

Unlimited maps from Zana, with ...


the Downsides:

- of higher variance, and
- one quest must be completed to start the next one




Nice side effect:

- you can give players the chance to get a high zone out of zana every here and then, but only if they play and complete all the quests on low zones that spawn inbetween.



Zana 8 Zone Example:

70 3%
71 4%
72 5%
73 15%
74 25%
75 25%
76 15%
77 5%
79 2%
80 1%

23% of zana is 76+
80% of zana is 73 to 76
27% of zana is 73 or lower

couple of things,

first, #2 seems just like low level maps which are overabundant and you can run white/blue

second, this statement "Maps gate maps. If one has no maps he can't get new maps. If one can't get new maps he can't play maps. Etc and the other way round. Can one normal lvl human brain try to at least understand that the idea itself is incompatible with reality "

isnt really correct

you get maps by playing lower level maps. you can play lower tier maps if you don't have higher tier maps. there is an abundance of low level maps. its just that people DONT FEEL LIKE grinding lower maps

this is a concept of a tiered stakes, that is routinely present in reality

a great example is tiers in poker. lets say youre a really really great poker player but have no bankroll. you cant play highest stakes right away, because, you have no bankroll

so you will have to start with microstakes and work your way to the top. several times the great player will hit terrible streaks and fall down a few tiers. no one gives a fuck whether he is a great player or not, as long as he doesnt have a bankroll to do high stakes, he wont play in it. he/she can borrow bankroll (ie, same as buying maps) or be forced to do lower tier stakes (lower maps). its pretty much the same thing as the map system, except theres a bit less RNG (but still a ton of RNG, because, well, its still gambling)

so, the idea is very well compatible with reality, and not only that, but its a routine idea. it's just people in reality know their place in the ultimate hierarchy, know how to manage the bankroll, and aren't against slowly grinding microstakes to build up bankroll

"players go on journey"


Theses 4 words made me think about endless possibilities. I would like to see something developped in game around that theme, going on an adventure or a journey it would be perfect.

"

grepman wrote:

couple of things,

first, #2 seems just like low level maps which are overabundant and you can run white/blue

second, this statement "Maps gate maps. If one has no maps he can't get new maps. If one can't get new maps he can't play maps. Etc and the other way round. Can one normal lvl human brain try to at least understand that the idea itself is incompatible with reality "

isnt really correct

you get maps by playing lower level maps. you can play lower tier maps if you don't have higher tier maps. there is an abundance of low level maps. its just that people DONT FEEL LIKE grinding lower maps

this is a concept of a tiered stakes, that is routinely present in reality

a great example is tiers in poker. lets say youre a really really great poker player but have no bankroll. you cant play highest stakes right away, because, you have no bankroll

so you will have to start with microstakes and work your way to the top. several times the great player will hit terrible streaks and fall down a few tiers. no one gives a fuck whether he is a great player or not, as long as he doesnt have a bankroll to do high stakes, he wont play in it. he/she can borrow bankroll (ie, same as buying maps) or be forced to do lower tier stakes (lower maps). its pretty much the same thing as the map system, except theres a bit less RNG (but still a ton of RNG, because, well, its still gambling)

so, the idea is very well compatible with reality, and not only that, but its a routine idea. it's just people in reality know their place in the ultimate hierarchy, know how to manage the bankroll, and aren't against slowly grinding microstakes to build up bankroll

While I agree that the quoted statement in theory isn't correct, as you stated, it still is derived from PoE reality.

In a perfect world you would play maps for XP and items/currency. In PoE you play maps in order to sustain maps in new leagues and if you are not super rich in standard as well.

If you compare it to poker, why don't you suggest to allow RMT with maps? The current system encourages to use real money to speed up your map bankroll just as poker encourages you to use your private money to go up to adequate stakes in order to save time. As RMT is forbidden by GGG, a system that by evidence encourages RMT is by default not doing its job at all. Poker is a game that ppl earn income with, PoE isn't.

Players get into bad mood when:
- they see other RMT for maps (most of the top temp league players do it on a frequent basis, there is no other way to get and sustain the mappool they use) and therefore they had to pay higher prices if they every here and then wanted to legitimately buy a few higher maps for the few orbs they earned hard.
- when everything is gated and controlled by RNG
- when they do everything they can (roll 100%+ maps with all extras) and they still don't get rewarded

GGG gets into bad mood when:
- they have to adjust the RNG back and forth to meet their own and player's demands: This is what happened all the time. Map drops getting buffed, getting nerfed, getting buffed. The sequence of these happenings in praxis proves my thesis to be right. The map system alone is by default not capable of satisfying all needs and demands. Therefore it needs to be complemented i.e. by the three column system that I suggested with different focus on each column.

This system as presented grants the following to players:
- more alteration (column 3 can and will replace map rotations of always the same boring zone)
- less bad mood (less visible rng in rng on rng) as there are different things and tasks to do instead of just playing maps in order to get maps (headache before + feeling of getting punished after)
- more risk/reward thinking and planning (column 3)
- access to higher lvl zones withou having to make them drop everywhere for everyone (column 3)
- a solid basis to fall back on (column 2)
- being able to play maps without worrying about mapdrops (they just drop none or barely any, column 1)
- a new system of obtaining and distributing maps (which has to be worked out in detail yet)

Sorry, what did you say again about poker? Irrelevant.

Full agree @ grepman.

I fully agree on grepman too, but nothing he said is of relevance for this suggestion.


You can't make players think & feel differently by telling them that they have to do what they don't like to do as you don't encourage them to do it. As a game designer you have to make players want to do what is required to proceed, not blame them to be guilty of using the wrong approach or attitude.



I.e. my suggested column 3 clearly encourages players to play zones that are lower than their standards in order to achieve a goal and get rewarded.

Don't you agree here too, Scrotie?

Wouldn't you agree on playing lower maps now in order to build up higher maps is being experienced as a punishment by players all over the place?

Wouldn't you agree on that a feeling of getting rewarded is better than of being punished, Scrotie?

Your premise is faulty. You can always get maps by:

1) playing regular zones
2) Trading.
3) Zana.

Your claim that the only way to get maps is to have maps makes the rest of what you wrote not worth reading. You might have a good point, but don't put us off by starting out with blatant falsehoods.

"

Shagsbeard wrote:

Your premise is faulty. You can always get maps by:

1) playing regular zones
2) Trading.
3) Zana.

Your claim that the only way to get maps is to have maps makes the rest of what you wrote not worth reading. You might have a good point, but don't put us off by starting out with blatant falsehoods.

Shags, unlike you some people actually play high-level content... You should stick to discussing things you're familiar with.