Summon skeles vs. Summon raging spirit

Lets compare level 20 gems

Summon Raging Spirit
Life: 1960
Average Damage: 183 phys + 183 fire (365.5 total)
APS: 1.63
Damage effectiveness: 70%
Cast time: 0.8s
DPS: 553.4
Damage effectiveness * APS: 1.12
Mana cost: 15
Duration: 3.5s

Summon Skeleton
Life: 1143
Average Damage: 339.5
APS: 0.93
Damage effectiveness: 100%
Cast time: 1s (0.5 per skele)
DPS: 315.8
Damage effectiveness * APS: 0.93
Mana cost: 46
Duration: 20s

Results

Raging Spirits deal 75% more damage per second (almost same physical but 50% fire on top), benefit more from added damage, cost 35% less mana per minion, have a default cap of 50, have a high base movement speed and have 71.5% more life. Cast time per minion is 60% slower and minions don't block enemies.

Skeletons block enemies and summon two at a time, for an effective cast time of 0.5s and 23 mana cost per skeleton. They last 5.7 times longer than Raging Spirits. Skeletons are outclassed in every other category apart from this.

Analysis

Raging Spirits require a large increased duration investment, and I'm assuming cast speed is extremely beneficial because of the huge base minion cap. Hatred adds up to 35% DPS to the minion. Anger and Wrath add 19% and 25% DPS respectively. Their high speed contributes to clear speed substantially, and improved health lets them withstand boss AOE attacks for longer for better effective DPS. They require less mana cost investment on the tree. They also benefit from a +3 fire staff, allowing for 4+ gem levels with empower as well as a 6 link.

Skeletons benefit the same from Hatred, but Anger and Wrath are poor choices are far as clear speed is concerned. Their base cap of 6 means that a substantial tree investment is required. The minions move very slow, recasting is a better option than waiting for the skeletons to move to the next enemy. They deal slightly more physical damage per hit, allowing them to ignore more armour. To sustain a 46 mana cost skill with support gems, heavy mana investment is needed. They use a weapon, so can benefit from weapon elemental damage. They can be used in a +2 helmet, but this limits them to a 4-Link.

In conclusion, skeletons just don't appear to be a viable option for offense. They are useful as cannon fodder on a spell totem but thats about as far as their utility goes. If you're looking for an army build, SRS is going to do laps around Summon Skeletons. An increase to skeleton damage/life could turn the gem into a heavy hitting alternative to summon raging spirits.

This is part of the reason why I believe Spell Totem should have its cast speed further reduced, in exchange for having its damage buffed. Constantly covering foes in Skeletons to entangle them would be less viable, making room for Summon Skeletons to compete a little more with SMS in terms of damage.

Naturally, SMS's only defense is offense, so SMS would still be superior offensively.

making SRS into 'summon' instead of calling it what it really is: 'release homing fireball' was a mistake. letting it 'attack' instead of 'cast' was another one.

it made all non-SRS summoners look like defunct experiments

SRS is the problem here, not skeletons

I honestly have always wanted a pure skeleton build or a more skeleton focused summoner. I've always made a summoner every season and same with when I used to play Diablo 2. It was hella fun. I honestly never liked the idea of the zombies and thought they looked kinda dumb.

But either way it would be nice if skeletons were more viable 'in general'. I'll hold out for hopes that GGG throws in some more summoner uniques for a pure skele build, but for now I want to see SRS changed. It should never have been a "summoner" skill. SRS is just a homing fireball and its stupid.

All you do is stand there holding down LMB. There's no active skills like with the standard summoner who casts bone/flesh offering, desecrate, etc.


TLDR: BUFF/CHANGE SKELETONS PLZ

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lukeiy wrote:

Skeletons use a weapon, so can benefit from weapon elemental damage.

I tested it once with a ton of ele damage on them and it didn't seem to work, it's probably just cosmetic.

The damage is decent enough at high levels but I guess they were just never designed as a potential main skill. Which doesn't mean they are useless, things like whirling blades or freeze mine are useful enough without being a good main skill.

Once they go over from 'deals 50% less ele damage' to damage effectiveness it will be possible to use them with instability for some skeleton bombing action.

Actually weapon elemental damage should buff all attacks even Zombies unarmed.
I don't think Skele have a weapon its just a monster attack.

Its funny 1 Spirit has higher dps than a zombie and you have like 30+ vs. 8.
And its super hard to increase their number with spirit you just take some increased skill duration.
Buff Zombie Damage? Spirits are better at tanking enemy since they just eat mobs.

"

Hatred adds up to 35% DPS to the minion.

Ouch, that's totally wrong. It gives bonus damage depending on the physical damage. Since RS also do fire damage that doesn't increase the Hatred-bonusdamage the overall DPS bonus is much lower.

"

Raging Spirits deal 75% more damage per second (almost same physical but 50% fire on top),

So 1/3 of the damage RS do is fire and doesn't get benefited. Means RS get only about 24% more damage from hatred (even less when you add more elemental damage through Anger or Wrath to the physical output).

"

SuperMotte wrote:

"

Hatred adds up to 35% DPS to the minion.

Ouch, that's totally wrong. It gives bonus damage depending on the physical damage. Since RS also do fire damage that doesn't increase the Hatred-bonusdamage the overall DPS bonus is much lower.

"

Raging Spirits deal 75% more damage per second (almost same physical but 50% fire on top),

So 1/3 of the damage RS do is fire and doesn't get benefited. Means RS get only about 24% more damage from hatred (even less when you add more elemental damage through Anger or Wrath to the physical output).

Regular rules for conversion apply, see http://pathofexile.gamepedia.com/Damage_conversion. 35% is with no other added damage modifiers.

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SuperMotte wrote:

Ouch, that's totally wrong. It gives bonus damage depending on the physical damage. Since RS also do fire damage that doesn't increase the Hatred-bonusdamage the overall DPS bonus is much lower.

This also isn't right, raging spirits work the same as, say, infernal blow, they have some amount of base physical and 50% of that gets converted to fire. That's why MPD is a very good support for them and Hatred also adds damage based on the entire amount, not just physical part.

That said, once they rework skeletons into damage effectiveness, Hatred and Added Fire will work twice as good on them. With more good ways to scale their damage and instability on top of everything I'd say they might work even as a main skill.

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raics wrote:

That said, once they rework skeletons into damage effectiveness, Hatred and Added Fire will work twice as good on them. With more good ways to scale their damage and instability on top of everything I'd say they might work even as a main skill.

Except SRS benefits almost exactly the same from Added Fire/Hatred as summon skeles because of near identical values of physical DPS. SRS has an additonal 50% fire on top though.