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Catchafire2000 wrote:
and to add, I might be one of the few people who do not consider SRS a minion build or minion anything; its just a weird fireball thingy...
Node-wise I think it's important to remember that raging spirits are considered minions...but in terms of playstyle, yeah, I'm probably just full of wishful thinking in seeing them as homing fireballs.
If I like a game, it'll either be amazing later or awful forever. There's no in-between.
I am Path of Exile's biggest whale. Period.
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Posted byForeverhappychan#4626on Apr 22, 2015, 6:11:27 PMAlpha Member
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Saltychipmunk wrote:
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kamilrogoz wrote:
I don't get why so many people complains on lack of gem slots. How many auras, cwdt or spell totem setups would you like to run on your summoner to be happy?
We can easily slot all mandatory gems for this build, including bunch of auras, dual curse, offering, desecrate and convocation.
lol he thinks summoners other than srs have room for cwdt how cute
Where did I said that summoners got space for CWDT setup?
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Posted bykamilrogoz#3067on Apr 22, 2015, 6:51:03 PM
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Saltychipmunk wrote:
hmm, then how about some one with a history of saying why summoners are a mess addresses both parties.
Summoners really are a mess. right now there really is no such thing as a pure summoner. summons by themselves lack the means to perpetuate their own viability. this has been a HUGE problem since the creation of poe and it is the major reason why summoners are terrible to level.
they are too dependent on other mechanics such as necronomic aegis and specific shields and or auras.
they have no physical mitigation and no real means to get it without using extremely limiting mechanics,
they have no real method of life restoration. you have to use a rejuve totem or rolled animation flasks or regeneration auras . 5 or 6 things to get life restoration levels that a simple life potion would give to everything else. and if you lack specific combinations of those things your minions die faster than one can summon them.
summoners are over dependent on unique items with almost no options on rares. why do i have to use bones of uller, vis mortis and queen's decree/ midnight bargain just so the specter gem is viable? I though unique items were not supposed to be bis , yet here we are what 2 years in now? and behold not 1, not 2 but 3 unique items are definitively bis for this build and they arent even high level like mjolnir or shavs, two are in the 20s and one barely passes 40.
and it is not like rares are full or minion mods. what do summoners get on wands? cast speed, mana and resists. that is the grand total of all random mods on wands that are useful to asummoner. mods so generic you can be forgiven for thinking this was launch day diablo 3.
And whats worse is that the few minion mods we do get are master gated and limited.
this is why srs is the best build. i can use ANY +2 fire / minion item in the game and my build is good to go, no god damn bones of uller , no bloody midnight bargain NONE of that bull shit. and guess what as SRS i get to do 2 - 10 times the damage yay balance.
But let us talk about gems. i dont know or care if you were around for this but back in the day summoners did not get things like convocation , or desecrate or bone offering. and even back then they had gem slot issues. But every time there was some sort of glaring issue with summoners for ggg to solve. what do they do? they add a gem to solve it. Where the HELL are we so supposed to fit all these god damn gems? HMMM? tell me?
minions stuck in the tunnel maps? well find room for convocation.
minions lack attack speed or defenses ? pack some offerings.
boss doesn't have ads to get corpses from? better have room for a desecrate.
again where the heck do we put all of these things? why do we need a gem slot just to get the minion equivalent of a desynch fix? why is that not just an inherent mechanic?
flesh and bone offering are nice and all that , but it is clear that gem space issues have created a clear winner there with flesh offering. It is so bad that any build that needs to rely on bone offering is considered inferior due to the hit on clear speed.
and then there is desecrate. ugh.......
And how about all of those unused minions? skeletons? why the hell would anyone use these when srs do double the dps, move twice as fast and hit almost twice as fast?
animate weapon? they die on load screens T-T come on.
And how is animate guardian doing? don't know? well that is not surprising since almost no one uses that poor fella. turns out losing items on death is not a popular feature.
If we want to turn this into mud slapping game , i can flood this thread with enough toxic bile to turn everyone into the toxic avenger.
This post should be stickied, thoroughly analzyed, and carefully considered in regards to summoner balance. I actually laughed out loud when I read where Chris stated that they were changing monsters to aggro players, rather than their minions. What would be the point in playing a summoner at all at that point? Their main draw is that they have "meatshields", not great clearing speed. So then the monsters aggro the players and their dps is sub-par to other builds? Seriously, I would really love an explanation as to what the incentive of playing as a summoner might be in the future. What have I overlooked?
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Charan wrote:
Node-wise I think it's important to remember that raging spirits are considered minions...but in terms of playstyle, yeah, I'm probably just full of wishful thinking in seeing them as homing fireballs.
Now that is irony. I've always described them as "summoner flavored, homing fireballs" when people ask what they are or in expressing my disdain for their very existence.
Still in the alpha stage, but at least build diversity isn't an issue: https://wolcengame.com/home/ Last edited by JNF#6963 on Apr 22, 2015, 7:33:14 PM
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Posted byJNF#6963on Apr 22, 2015, 7:28:47 PM
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So like, do golems do enough damage to be worth using on a summoner at all? Cause I was really hoping at the very least for a ranged minion or something. All these melee minions is absolutely terrible for overall DPS cause they keep getting in each others' way (unless summoner minion collision for themselves was removed somewhere? Honestly it's been a while since I got into the game but was hoping to come back for Awakening)
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Posted byTiamatRoar#4443on Apr 22, 2015, 7:43:16 PM
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Charan wrote:
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Catchafire2000 wrote:
and to add, I might be one of the few people who do not consider SRS a minion build or minion anything; its just a weird fireball thingy...
Node-wise I think it's important to remember that raging spirits are considered minions...but in terms of playstyle, yeah, I'm probably just full of wishful thinking in seeing them as homing fireballs.
i can argue on the contrary if you were to humor some loose logic here, in most cases srs builds go for minion damage, much like any spell build would for damage nodes. any minion life , + minion nodes or things like minion regen or resists are taken only because they are easy to get( actually they dont even take them if they are easy) or on the way to damage nodes.
heck many srs builds go right past the 10, 10, 16 minion life bubble and do not take it. same for the minion life regen / resist bubble. those two are often consider core minion bubbles too...
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kamilrogoz wrote:
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Saltychipmunk wrote:
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kamilrogoz wrote:
I don't get why so many people complains on lack of gem slots. How many auras, cwdt or spell totem setups would you like to run on your summoner to be happy?
We can easily slot all mandatory gems for this build, including bunch of auras, dual curse, offering, desecrate and convocation.
lol he thinks summoners other than srs have room for cwdt how cute
Where did I said that summoners got space for CWDT setup?
my humble apologies , that post was on my phone.
Last edited by Saltychipmunk#1430 on Apr 22, 2015, 7:45:29 PM
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Posted bySaltychipmunk#1430on Apr 22, 2015, 7:43:27 PM
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Charan wrote:
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Catchafire2000 wrote:
and to add, I might be one of the few people who do not consider SRS a minion build or minion anything; its just a weird fireball thingy...
Node-wise I think it's important to remember that raging spirits are considered minions...but in terms of playstyle, yeah, I'm probably just full of wishful thinking in seeing them as homing fireballs.
Haha, homing fireballa is exactly what they are. I would much like them described as projectiles than minions.
GGG listens to its fans!!! Thank you!
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Although they are really mostly an attack, gameplay-wise, the important thing they potentially add to a summoner is SPAMMABLE damage that the summoner can get no where else.
Without SRS, there is nothing a summoner (that specialized in summoner nodes and thus has little self damage) can spam to meaningfully contribute to the battle if things aren't going downhill fast (lots of unspammable things like curses, etc, though. And of course, if things go downhill fast you'll be spending a lot of time resummoning). SRS gives a spammable option that actually makes use of all that minion damage a summoner has, and is the only option for that.
I'm marginally certain that was the intended purpose of it. But I could be wrong.
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Posted byTiamatRoar#4443on Apr 22, 2015, 8:27:18 PM
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TiamatRoar wrote:
Although they are really mostly an attack, gameplay-wise, the important thing they potentially add to a summoner is SPAMMABLE damage that the summoner can get no where else.
Without SRS, there is nothing a summoner (that specialized in summoner nodes and thus has little self damage) can spam to meaningfully contribute to the battle if things aren't going downhill fast (lots of unspammable things like curses, etc, though. And of course, if things go downhill fast you'll be spending a lot of time resummoning). SRS gives a spammable option that actually makes use of all that minion damage a summoner has, and is the only option for that.
I'm marginally certain that was the intended purpose of it. But I could be wrong.
I disagree, summoners have the largest gem requirements in the game, this by its very nature means summoners have plenty to spam.
you have your lightning spell to proc ee, and optionally curses
you have offerings
you have desecrate
you have convocation
you have possibly rejuve totem, although that thing kind of sucks
you have vaal skills , specifically haste and grace.
you have optional self cast curses.
just because you dont have srs to spam doesnt mean there arent things to spam.
if done right a permanent minion summoner wont have time to summon minions. and indeed many of the perm summoners back in their golden days of snapshotting did just that and even streamlined their mana reservation so they could not replace minions without turning off an aura.
fundamentally srs is over powered because it doesnt need to have much minion stuff invested on it. you dont need minion life , you dont need to get expensive + 1 minion cap nodes , you dont need necro aegis and you dont need minion specific uniques. hell the only thing a SRS summoner needs that has anything to do with summoning are the damage passives.... they dont even use minion specific supprot gems. the rest is purely all class/ all build shlock.
Last edited by Saltychipmunk#1430 on Apr 22, 2015, 8:36:18 PM
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Posted bySaltychipmunk#1430on Apr 22, 2015, 8:32:54 PM
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Vaphobos wrote:
My contribution about summoners: what should change in act 4 but certainly will not. Thanks to GGG's lack of communication and action (I posted similar post already in the feedback section). I guess if there isn't a large amount of people whining about something (like melee) then no fix or improvement.
I'm still hoping GGG will do something about spectres and skeletons.
Skills:
Spectres
well sadly, I didn't hear about a fix for Spectres: you know, that problematic long and expensive quest for the right spectre. A spectre that disappears when you leave the game or remove the gem.
This huge problem sadly was never answered nor discussed by GGG staff, but no problem for animated guardian. A GGG's paradox to say the least.
Oh and don't forget the incredible and unique ability of spectres to downscale when you go to a lower lvl map. No weapon nor skill has ever had this horrible, atrocious and unbelievable error
Skeletons
Skeletons are quite useless, just a meat shield that can horribly fail against AOE and projectiles that pierce... or when the boss decides to target YOU which happens quite frequently...
And the most disappointing characteristic: they don't follow you... so you have to summons them at each fight... so you can not use them to prepare a good meat shield in advance. Forget that idea!
They're so useless that if you play without the skill, you quickly forget it even existed.
Zombies
A decent meat shield, but sadly their dps is crap, they have to be 5L or 6L to be good. Which is quite expensive because you already need 5L or 6L for your spectres. Yes two 6L...
Gear
Summoners have a very specialized gear with low defences and low mvt speed (Vis Mortis, Midnight Bargain, Bones of Ullr, etc) which is good at their own level but is not ok for end game maps.
Passive Tree
There are too many passive that you need to take in order to make your minions efficient (have enough defences and dps).
it is very difficult to have auras to boost your minions and take a decent amount of ES, cast speed, ele res, life and mana regen (all the good stuff) for yourself unless you're a lucky dude with a Shav and you go low life full 9 auras.
Summary
So to summarize, summoners are slow, weak, cheap and they suffer an unfair disadvantage: broken skills. BUT they are also quite powerful (for the low amount of currency you invest), they can also become way more powerful with 20/20 gems.
I'll answer some of your concerns about summoners as I feel like some of your criticism is unwarranted.
With spectres I pm'ed Rory about the issue associated with them and he replied to me saying that they don't currently have the tech for the skill gem to remember your last summoned minion and their solution to this was to try adding personalized corpses to your hideout. It seems to me like they really need to trash the spectre gem and give it a complete rework if they are trying to resort to just giving you the corpses for your build. People should get more up at arms and private messaging developers about fixing this if you want a solution by the end of beta or soon after.
Skeletons I completely agree, I think they should either give them a purpose or add in more useful versions of skeletons like a skeletal archer or mage.
When using zombies I generally don't want to build them super dps oriented because if you do they'll die if a light breeze blows past them. Their dps can be become very decent depending on your build and how many auras you're putting towards them. Personally I feel like their usage as a meat wall for your main damage dealers (spectres) is fine and don't need any more buffing since fortify is being added.
The general summoner gear is pretty decent, you give up resists and life in most cases to buff your minions very heavily. If you build with that in mind you should be plenty tanky when dealing with the monsters target you more often change. Really all I can recommend for you is if you're having trouble with health or survivability diversify your builds and try something new or different, you will find something more to your liking. Honestly though I think they mostly just changed how rogue exiles aggro, they'll just go after you instead of trying to chase the zombies around.
The minion nodes in the passive tree are a bit pigeon holed for some build variants but if you look around there are so many different ways to build very effective summoners of all kinds. Really just try a few out and you'll hopefully find one that is effective in the ways you value. If not I can recommend to you one or better yet you can make your own build.
All in all though I think summoners are in a very good spot, all that I see that needs fixing is spectres and some solution to making skeletons a little more useful.
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Posted byShadoman55#5606on Apr 22, 2015, 9:41:54 PM
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are there any minion recipes?
GGG listens to its fans!!! Thank you!
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