Copying other player's builds...

Hey everyone, what do you think about copying other player's builds? Do you think it is a negative aspect of the design that a player would have to, or want to, copy another player's build? Whether for learning purposes or desire to reach end game content?

Blizzard really went out of their way to guide their players *within* the game, to try and make player's less dependent on outside resources. In their minds, it isn't *fun* to have to look up a build online and copy it. Do you agree with this sentiment?

Their solution, I think, was to move the most powerful builds in to sets. With sets, it is very clear what a viable build is. Get a set, and you pretty much guarantee a useful end game build. You don't have to research anything, you just match the names of the items and you get a build that works.

It shouldn't be news to anybody that new players to PoE are quickly overwhelmed. Most of my friends didn't make it through Act 1 before quitting the game, while they all are pretty high level paragon in D3. They chose a set and farmed until they found the pieces, then tried to get ancients and see how high of a GR they could reach. It's honestly a pretty fun game, though the creativity aspect is very lacking. You pick a build designed by the developer and make a couple tweaks here or there with gems/abilities chosen.

It's strength is intuitiveness, it's weakness is creativity and variety.

Path of Exile is pretty much the opposite. Not very intuitive, but once you get the hang of it, the possibilities blow up astronomically. I prefer path of exile.

But can it be improved?

I've always loved the community of this game. Meeting people, trading, and coming to the forums or /r/pathofexile to see what's new or if someone found another way to break the game.

I realized I LIKE copying builds. I LIKE contributing to discussions and showcasing the strength of a niche item or gem. When I copy a build, it's usually a starting point where I can branch off and explore my own corner of what is possible or viable. I just wonder if there is a way to make it easier for new players to jump in.

I think it would be beneficial to officially *support* copying builds. I'm not sure how, but I do have some ideas. In Heroes of Newerth (a dota-like game if you haven't heard of it), players can submit character builds (what items to buy, what skills to choose and when), and the top ones are actually displayed as "recommended" builds in the game's shop while you play. You can pick a favorite for each character so that every time you play, the plan is laid out for you. If you've never played, the highest rated build is the default.

Do you think something like this could help Path of Exile ease new players in to the game? What if the forum could interface with the game, and the top rated posts could be accessed from within the game? A new player could simply follow a guide in the game, telling them what gem to pick for quest rewards, what items to look for early, mid, and late game. What prices they should expect to pay for required items or gems. And most importantly, how to level the passive tree. The passives could be a highlighted path, so when they level up they simply just click the next node along the path.

I really think this would be a huge help for new players and vets alike who want to try something new.

Have you looked at the class forums?

I'm well aware of the class forums and mentioned them in my post.

PoE is kind of a tough game, called "hardcore" by many. A lot of people will tell you that new players should make their first build themselves and fail at it just to learn from their mistakes. To understand how abilities and links interact with each other, and how to travel across the passive skill tree effectively. That's how I started playing PoE and that's how my friends started. We all failed miserably with our first characters just to learn from our mistakes.

As to "supporting" recommended builds, I think current state is good enough. We have forums for every class, with a sticky list of all the updated builds sorted by the ability they use. If you are inviting a friend to play PoE and they ask you "hey, what should I build?", just direct them to the forums, or recommend something common and strong. There definitely could be something done, like "recommended builds" example you mentioned from HoN, but GGG are a relatively small game developers and they really have a lot of more important stuff to deal with.

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rinleezwins wrote:

If you are inviting a friend to play PoE and they ask you "hey, what should I build?", just direct them to the forums, or recommend something common and strong. There definitely could be something done, like "recommended builds" example you mentioned from HoN,

I disagree. Unless you are a 'hardcore' gamer willing to invest many hours/days learning a game before you can actually have *fun* with it, you will not last. If I tell them to go to the forums and start reading, they're going to want to just load up Diablo 3 and have fun right now. Why bother?

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but GGG are a relatively small game developers and they really have a lot of more important stuff to deal with.

I really disagree with this. For a small game developer, converting prospective players in to return players is HUGE. If they could increase retention by 30%, that is money in their pockets. I work in the software business, and converting leads in to sales is absolutely number 1 priority. This is just business in general, not even just software.

Path of Exile is an amazing game, I am confident that getting players "over the hump" is the single most important thing the developers could do to increase the popularity of this game. The gameplay is there, the depth is there, the content is there, but if it's difficult to learn enough to have fun, you're going to lose a vast amount of players.

As a longtime Magic: the Gathering player, I can say that while I personally hate playing decks I didn't build myself, there's nothing wrong with netdecking if you are unsure of your own skills or just want to compete.

Honestly, the passive tree choices doesn't make much of a difference for a beginner in the first couple Acts. The starting paths have all been revamped to make sure you can't mess it up for Normal difficulty. The nodes that are close to the start are all very efficient nodes and there is a high concentration of notables right after them. The difficulty ramps up when you need to get to distant keystones or notables, a beginner can get away with not doing that until level 40 or so.

If someone quits before they beat Act 1, I really doubt it's about their build. Something else probably didn't click.

if you copy other people's builds, you're losing 50% of the fun and you'll never understand the game

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DarkWap wrote:

if you copy other people's builds, you're losing 50% of the fun and you'll never understand the game

and if you never understand the game, you can never have fun making your own builds

PoE has a very steep learning curve.

I think it's definitely okay for a newbie to copy a build when they first start, just so they can familiarize themselves with the game. It's no fun dying repeatedly (and possibly quitting) because they have no idea what they're doing.

Now if someone has played for 2+ years and still copies other people's builds on every single character they create, then there might be a problem (but still debatable).

When I made my build guide on the Ranger forums, it was very satisfying seeing new players enjoying their first PoE playthrough using my build. I'm sure many of them have gone on to tweak and/or create their own builds.

The community of PoE is one of its greatest assets. Players helping players. I definitely feel that spirit is what keeps PoE going. Inspire others and be inspired by others.