Is it me, or is racing unbalanced?

I started racing in season 5 being an almost complete newbie to the game and spent a few seasons just doing them when they were convenient, trying to hit point thresholds. Now I almost always come top 10 in class (ranger, provided i survive) even when I drop in for a casual race, so this is going to be yet another "inside looking out" opinion.

Racing is mostly a matter of repetition and getting into the groove of the game. There are some tricks that speed it up slightly like being efficient at inventory management and control-clicking to instantly assign skill points, but the bulk of the things that separate the people who consistently rank highly come down to
- Learning the layout of the zones
- The trees they roll with
- The recipes they use (for vanilla races)
- Ignoring small groups of monsters and only killing large groups + blue packs
- Being able to do bosses without defences, because a high ranked racer's tree is going to be almost entirely damage and move speed.

For example, a ranger that picks fire trap from killing hillock will speed ahead of anyone who goes for the other two choices. That alone is a significant speed boost in the early game because you don't have to wait around for things to die. A quicksilver flask or two and you're easily ahead of 1/2 the competition, even a lot of witches and templars and whatnot. Phys recipe a longbow with a magic rustic after brutus and your clear speed gets further ahead of everyone else who's trying to get by on random rolled weapons.

It's all about bringing the various tricks together on one character which pushes you ahead, and that's what brings about the gap in "skill". I think it's healthy and makes the ladder a lot less daunting to climb for people who want to get there - I go at a reasonably relaxed pace, including stopping to chat to people on steam and whatnot once in a while but because I know the tricks it's still easy enough to come top 20 in class.
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Pam wrote:


8th templar in tendrils champions and 4th shadow in bruthud kill is not top
only the first place matters, and sometimes 2nd if it's really close but otherwise it's mostly a matter of "you're the only one taking it seriously"


you are using examples that are more RNG driven (brutus/mervil kills) and a race which is garbage (yeah i think champions is garbage). short races dont have the luxury of normalizing rng that long races do. dont brush off the fact that you know your best races are probably vanilla and fixed seed (vanilla variation).

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Pam wrote:

Skill is a word used to represent a wall of effort, talent, power of will and mental discipline that you can't evaluate the height until you're good enough to reach the clouds of competition, but it's still going up. And have that word thrown away for leveling the fastest in a game where you optimize your right click just does't feel right.


for the most part i agree

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Pam wrote:

the only part of the game which could be qualified as somewhat competitive mostly relies on knowledge identifying layouts and even then it's plagued by cheating just like the regular game.


there's nothing competitive about identifying layouts, similar to there's nothing inherently competitive about knowing a map in an FPS game.

dont get me wrong, i dont think poe is extremely skill based, however what i do think is that it still requires skill just less so (considerably less in some instances) than any other seriously competitive game/sport. this stems from the fact that for the most part you are attempting to out play a game as opposed to an actual human mind.

-HeaT
youtube.com/heatfury
twitch.tv/heatzgaming
Some of the points being made in this thread are absolutely pure garbage.

"No skill in PoE" is basically some lame attempt to make you\other feel better\worse about things that has absolutely no substantive basis in anything.

Skill - the ability to do something well; expertise.

The same people win through both of those areas, expertise and doing it well.

"there's nothing competitive about identifying layouts, similar to there's nothing inherently competitive about knowing a map in an FPS game."

I mean what, the layouts change. Inherently when something changes, adapting to it better than someone else would likely be characterized as a skill. People don't employ the same strategy for attacking the bomb site in map XYZ in counterstrike, and it is a skill how they respond to new situations.

Cheating is a huge issue in PoE, but going about your day spreading some of the stuff in this thread is hugely counterproductive.
"When I close my eyes, I see this thing, a sign, I see this name in bright blue neon lights with a purple outline. And this name is so bright and so sharp that the sign - it just blows up because the name is so powerful... It says, "Diamond Supporter."
If there is no skill in PoE racing, by definition there is no skill in any other game. In any game you repeat tasks over and over until you preform them more quickly, more efficiently, or more accurately than others depending on variables and knowledge. The people who do these things the best are the most skilled. Same thing for any sport on the planet.

anything is everything
Last edited by Manocean on Dec 30, 2014, 4:33:02 AM
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If there is no skill in PoE racing, by definition there is no skill in any other game. In any game you repeat tasks over and over until you preform them more quickly, more efficiently, or more accurately than others depending on variables and knowledge. The people who do these things the best are the most skilled. Same thing for any sport on the planet.

I've kept my comparisons in the realm of computer games, if you could do the same that would be great, because there's a bit more to it than just repeating a task in competitiv games /:

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"No skill in PoE" is basically some lame attempt to make you\other feel better\worse about things that has absolutely no substantive basis in anything.

Nah my attempt was, if you feel/bring up that you are skilled in poe you're garbage and probably too dumb to realize what it takes to be skilled in a real game
that doesn't put me above anyone else, if anything the only reason I'm getting decent results in poe is thanks to fixed seed and no one else trying
Last edited by Pam on Dec 30, 2014, 5:09:18 AM
Warning: I was bored at work and wrote this post over several hours in between doing dumb mundane "noskill" tasks

Spoiler
Almost every game in existence requires some ammount of skill. With the exception of games like: "two people roll a die randomly and the person who rolls higher wins".
Even rock-paper-scissors requires skill. The skill to predict what your opponent will pick.

As Mors said, "skill" in any game can be divided in two areas - knowledge and execution.

Some games only require knowledge and no execution whatsoever - most card games fall in this category.
You can gain game experience in what cards to put in your deck / what cards to play according to each game state you are faced with but you can't practice or improve your execution - unless you somehow are having trouble dropping a card in the middle of the table or dragging a pyroblast to your opponent's face.

When people talk about games with no skill, they usually mean the game has a low skill ceiling meaning that the difference between an unskilled player and a skilled player is not that big.
Of all the games i know, i would rate Stracraft:Brood War as the game with the highest skill ceiling i played/watched.

Skill ceiling correlates directly to the number of subtle mistakes its possible to make. Both mistakes as in not making the right decision (knowledge) or not having the motor ability to do something as perfectly as your brain tells you to (execution). Starcraft has A LOT of those moments where a skilled player will gain edges and eventually snowball into a win.

That's why i consider MtG more skilled than Hearthstone because you have more opportunities to make subtle mistakes and thus more opportunities to gain an edge when you make the right decisions.
Note that the word subtle is important. Having more opportunities to make blatantly stupid stuff doesn't make the skill ceiling higher, it makes the noob floor lower.

RNG works directly against the skill ceiling. The higher ammount and relevance of RNG in the game, the lower the skill ceiling will be.

Hearthstone has high RNG, you can be just a competent player, be given a good deck and you will have a good shot at beating skilled players around 40% of the time (for example).


PoE racing, in my opinion, has an average skill ceiling. It requires some ammount of game knowledge and proper execution but the RNG influence lowers the ceiling.

You can gain most of the game knowledge involved by watching streams of top racers. There are things that you won't "see" at first but with enough experience, you will notice the most important aspects of game knowledge.
Racers that don't stream have an edge of having access to the game knowledge they aquired on their own plus wathever is made available by the people that stream. Nothing wrong with that though, they worked for it.

Execution can only be gained by practicing.
Helman streams every race he does and he still gets #1 duelist all the time. That's a combination of few competent players racing as duelist and helman having amazing execution (at least as far as leap slamming goes). You can watch him and understand all the decisions he makes but when you try it yourself you are slower. You lack execution.

I think i have good game knowledge of PoE racing but there's still a ton of stuff i don't know for sure.

. if i get a transmute drop from hrake, should i trans my qs straight away or save ir for a jade?
. should i go out of my way and kill that pack of 4 mobs half a screen away based on my current lvl/zone?
. should i go out of my way and kill that pack of 6 mobs a screen away based on my current lvl/zone?
. what nodes and in what order should i get on the passive tree for a specific race? (hard to say on some classes)
. i have enough shit to craft my +1 at the end of pgate. should i tp out now? should i try and find ship grave wp? should i just do it on wrath wp? What if its a famine race and my qs doesnt recharge?
. do i want this wand with +10% spell dmg or this wand with +3% cast speed? Does the 10% spell damage actually makes a difference and allows me to cast less spells?

In terms of execution, i'm not very good. Constantly missclicking, being sloppy and killing stray mobs even when i know i shouldn't, wasting too much time in town, sometimes playing too defensively/running around too much and losing time, leaping to suboptimal places, etc.
I do think i have good inventory management tho :p

From just these examples (there are way more) you can see there are multiple opportunities to make subtle mistakes and a skilled racer will gain edges over others.

Then there's the RNG: currency, ms boots, extra qs, att speed, layouts, mob density...
In my oppinion, the RNG influece is very big and you only need to be a competent racer to beat a skilled/top racer if the RNG goes your way.

I think, in general, people don't care enough to actually try hard and put everything into being good poe racers because there's just no incentive for it.
We do some prac runs, test some things here and there, learn some layouts but overall just go with it and have fun.
If a "poe racing career" was actually a thing, im pretty sure the results the "top racers" achieve atm would be considered pathetic.

In order for a game to be entertaining, you need an extremely high level of execution so the audience is in awe when amazing things are achieved (starcraft) or high levels of RNG so the audience laughs (hearthstone). Game knowledge is mostly irrelevant as far as entertainment goes because it spreads too easily.

PoE racing would be more competitive if most RNG layers were removed or made less relevant but it would be a lot more boring. Its a hard thing to balance.

So yeah...i do consider PoE racing a skill. Not nearly as skilled as Stracraft but way more skilled than Hearthstone :^)
Nice post. Considering who ppl count as top racer sometimes, ofc results will be pathetic :D
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Morsexier wrote:

I mean what, the layouts change. Inherently when something changes, adapting to it better than someone else would likely be characterized as a skill. People don't employ the same strategy for attacking the bomb site in map XYZ in counterstrike, and it is a skill how they respond to new situations.


i still dont agree (and i think we may be talking about different things), if i immediately identify a layout there is very little "competitiveness" about that, the adaptation is nominal and basically drills down to head in this general direction. the real adaptation and skill comes from the monster spawns and how you most efficiently clear them from point x to point y. perhaps "nothing" was too harsh, just of all the things he could have picked to denote skill, i think identifying a layout is not very high on the pole of what differentiates skill, it's also non-existant in fixed seed which has similar results as non fixed. it's hard for me to articulate over text, if you ever feel like discussing it over voice let me know.


also, dont get me wrong, i think poe takes skill (just not as much as other games), that's why i initially responded to pam's statement. my initial response implied what tag said about helman, if it's not skill why is he always #1 duelist, i just applied it to pam.

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Pam wrote:

Nah my attempt was, if you feel/bring up that you are skilled in poe you're garbage and probably too dumb to realize what it takes to be skilled in a real game


i dont understand why you would be garbage or dumb, that's a loaded assumption. i think each game has has a mutually exclusive skill threshold, so that doesnt negate the fact that you might be skilled in poe or starcraft or whatever.

-HeaT
youtube.com/heatfury
twitch.tv/heatzgaming
Last edited by HeaT1 on Dec 30, 2014, 11:57:12 AM
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jstq wrote:
Nice post. Considering who ppl count as top racer sometimes, ofc results will be pathetic :D


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Pam wrote:
"
If there is no skill in PoE racing, by definition there is no skill in any other game. In any game you repeat tasks over and over until you preform them more quickly, more efficiently, or more accurately than others depending on variables and knowledge. The people who do these things the best are the most skilled. Same thing for any sport on the planet.

I've kept my comparisons in the realm of computer games, if you could do the same that would be great, because there's a bit more to it than just repeating a task in competitiv games /:


Not comprehending what I said :/

anything is everything
Last edited by Manocean on Jan 1, 2015, 5:31:48 AM

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