Can someone confirm melee getting buffed?

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Thirion wrote:

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deteego wrote:

The amount of damage you lose from not getting damage type nodes in general, in the tree is surprisingly minimal. Most of the damage you deal is through obtained items. There are a few nodes which give massive bonuses to damage, but thats just a few nodes (catalyst is a good example)

Thats your opinion and thats ok. In my opinion you don't need that much defense and most builds scale really well with damage (and more damage means mobs are dead faster in 90% of times -> no def needed as ranged). But well, some people like tanky, some people like offense, that doesn't make something better.

Its not really opinion, its maths. Elemental damage scales absurdly well with elemental damage on weapons.

There is a reason why everyone in HC is doing 3:1 build (where 3 is defense, mainly life and res, and 1 is damage)

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Thirion wrote:

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deteego wrote:

Also after rerolling a ranged character (cold damage witch), I am pretty much convinced that ranged heroes have a much better time than melee ones. Ranged heroes have just as many abilities to get them out of crap situations (quicksilver flask), and ranged, just as melee, have access to things like ES and life.

Quicksilver flask is no escape tbh. There are a lot of mobs (e.g. snakes, flicker, ...) were it doesn't help much compared to a leap slam. I am playing a melee atm and there are more hard situations but by far less "fuck that was close" situations.

Ranged have as many escapes as melee, there is nothing stopping you from doing a 3/4 build. Then you are both tanky and have ranged damage, its what everyone does lol

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Thirion wrote:

Everbody has to make his own choice, some like more tanky and/or safe and some want to deal more damage. My point is that if you look at both together its balanced.

The point we are making is that its not balanced at all. Damage is mainly scaled through items, and everyone is getting life mods

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Thirion wrote:

The main problem probably is that tank melee is not as safe as tank bow - thats not what you expect - but is still balanced because of more damage.

No, tank bow should be as safe as tank melee. The difference is that a tank melee should be doing more damage. If you invested just as much into defense with your marauder and you are holding a bow, you should be just as tanky as if you are holding a hammer/mace/staff

A marauder with a shield (like tower shield) would be slightly more tankier, but both builds should be as tanky as eachother, its just the bow marauder should be doing substantially less damage (and that isn't the case currently)

Nevermind. Misread.

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Thirion wrote:

Everbody has to make his own choice, some like more tanky and/or safe and some want to deal more damage. My point is that if you look at both together its balanced.

Yes melee can end up working but they are far more gear dependent. Without crazy high defenses you get melted. Everyone preaches enduring cry and I personally hate the skill. I find it to be a very annoying and boring skill. I would rather not be forced to use a skill I hate just to survive as a melee.

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anubite wrote:

lol GS and LS aren't melee, oh boy here we go...

Anyway, I have a 48 HC Duelist who uses Cleave (gasp) and Dual Strike and I'm going to be entering merciless too. The build has been very easy to execute and I've only taken Diamond Skin. Hell, my max life has been consistently 15-20% lower than usual (compared to my Templar/Marauder builds).

I'm not convinced melee is broken in 'every way' though they do have some issues. Going to wide with strokes here is going to result in a nerf patch that we really don't want.

I also play cleave duelist.

But no, Groudslam (a bit) and Lightningstrike are just not melee.

You can play GS like melee but no one does that.
Lightningstrike is "Chain+LMP" it's not played as melee.

Even sweep can be played as non melee (with increased aoe).

Right now there are only 2 true melee that are aoe as well and those are

Cleave

and

Infernal Blow.


Those are you options as melee Aoe attack. You either slice or you blow up.
And both are not particular good ways to farm and so on.

I mean I love melee, being fast and whirling through enemies and leaping into them and flicker from one to the other.
But it's dangerous (which is okay) but it's not okay compared to all the benefits a Wand character or caster has, well even a bow character.
They get pretty much the same defenses but dont have to stand in a bunch of mobs.


But GGG said melee is getting buffed. So I do hope for a new skill in 0.10.1

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Thirion wrote:

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No, just no. Getting HP nodes compared to a marauder / templare / duelist is a joke (there are a lot of 8% nodes ... compared to 12% nodes).

All these classes can use a bow, wand or spells. This just means those classes are better at ranged because they have more life.

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And better AOE skills like ground slam, leap slam or cleave (which have some crowd control too) - really? All ranged skills have a limited amount of units hit - well ... melee skills don't.

Lightningarrow with LMP Chain etc is much better in hitting many targets, same is true for splitarrow, rain of arrows, and things like freezepulse and so on.

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In addition you have insane mana problems ... melee has blood magic!

Bow Duelists, Rangers Marauders and templars all can use Bloodmagic. Actually everyone can use it.

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More damage - have you seen the base stats of a 2-hand melee weapon compared to a e.g. bow? In addition str gives you damage ... well, int and dex doesn't.

True, but the effectiveness of damage is also messured by the ammount you hit. Many small hits may add up as more damage than a single big one.
Killspeed as ranged is higher

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No, just no. There are more dangerours situations for melee, yes. But melee still has usually a good escape and is more tanky. In ranged there are a few, but insanely hard situations! And well, at least in HC you don't want that ...

While I agree about escape mechanics, kiting is easier in ranged 100% of the time.
Melee is not tankier.
There is no restrictions for ranged (but bow who cant use a shield) for same defenses.

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You ever played ranged? Try to use all "good" support gems with any skill and well , you won't ne able attack more than 2-3 times because of mana cost. Melee has Blood magic and because of that you can use all of the insane support gems. Btw, AOE melee skills usually hit ALL targets in an area, why would you ever need LMP / Fork / Chain?

Again, melee HAS NOT bloodmagic. EVERYONE can have bloodmagic.
And by the way there is also eldritchs battery.

Why Chain and so on is better you ask? Because you dont have to stand INSIDE the mobs like when you cleave.


Your arguments are bad. I'm sorry I play only HC and think though melee is viable, ranged just as a huge advantage.
The goal is not to make ranged worse, but to give melee more options, especially in form of supportgems and skills!

I really think i should give up. You just don't get it. And we are not getting somewhere.

Last try again :
Tanky Bow : Safety (++) damage (--)
Tanky melee : Safety (+) damage (-)
Tanky caster : Safety (+) damage (-)
Damage Ice-Caster : Safety (-) damage (+)
Damage Pmg-Bow : Safety (--) damage (++)
Damage melee : Safety (---) damage (+++)

Just because all players play 1-3 doesn't mean the others are UP or not viable.

To your statements :

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Its not really opinion, its maths. Elemental damage scales absurdly well with elemental damage on weapons.

Ele damage is a bit too strong atm, i agree. But it has 2 problems :
1) There are way more ele resist than pdmg resist mobs
2) Its really hard to get more damage at some point, because you got all Elemental nodes and it just scales with as.

Which means a 1:3 ele build deals way less damage than a 1:3 pdmg build.

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There is a reason why everyone in HC is doing 3:1 build (where 3 is defense, mainly life and res, and 1 is damage)

Almost everbody in Europe plays/watches soccer - that of course means soccer is the best sport there is.

What i mean with that : People in HC play 3:1 builds because they don't want to die. And they think that getting more def helps them to not die (which is in 10% of the cases true, in 90% it doesn't matter). 1:3 builds work and are viable. People just don't play them because they are harder and more risky to play - doesn't mean they don't work really well.

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All these classes can use a bow, wand or spells. This just means those classes are better at ranged because they have more life.

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Bow Duelists, Rangers Marauders and templars all can use Bloodmagic. Actually everyone can use it.

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There is no restrictions for ranged (but bow who cant use a shield) for same defenses.

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Again, melee HAS NOT bloodmagic. EVERYONE can have bloodmagic.

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Why Chain and so on is better you ask? Because you dont have to stand INSIDE the mobs like when you cleave.

But less damage.

Sry for all the quotes. But its true - i can get tanky and BM as ranged - but i deal less damage then. And less damage than a melee.

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Your arguments are bad. I'm sorry I play only HC and think though melee is viable, ranged just as a huge advantage.

I play only HC too. And in the beginning i though you need life and defense to survive. But after some ele/pdmg bow/caster/totem-mara (hybrid-)summoner that changed. Because after some time you understand that in 90% of death more defense wouldn't have helped. And with damage you get a way faster killspeed. And now i play usually glass cannon builds who work really well too.

I really don't like playing melee, otherwise i would try to make a glass cannon melee build work. And i'm sure its possible (probably not easy and really risky but it should work).

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Thirion wrote:

To your statements :


Sry for all the quotes. But its true - i can get tanky and BM as ranged - but i deal less damage then. And less damage than a melee.

But more damage is not good. More damage just means you die from reflect.

It's also not about damage in general, it's about effectiveness in killing and surviving.

Chain, though it reduces the damage, gives you a better chance to kill more monsters in less time with low risk.

Totems, though low cast speed and damage, are much safer than anything else since you dont have to stay in the mobs.
Why do you think sporktotem is played more often than regular spork?

Because spork in closecombat is better, but also means more risk, while a totem doesnt have any risk.

Cleave damage isn't particular high, I support mine with melee phys dmg, faster attacks and LgoH. I guess I could support it with even more, but those things are just mandatory in order to make it effective as a Closecombat class.


I mean melee is more fun to play imo, because you are much more active and not just use one skill all the time.

I whirle through enemies, in and out.
I leap from one pack of mobs to the next and cleave them down.
I dualstrike strong champs.
I curse them all with warlotsmark.
I generate endurance charges.
I could poison bosses with viper strike.


But when I face Vaal, I just switch to my bow and spam poison arrow.
Because I dont wanna be smashed, which is only a problem as melee.

True the rocks hurt as well but at least they dont one shot me, and I can evade them.
I can evade the smash? Well true, but only true if I'm not desyncing and still die(almost die) to it.
From 5 smashes 1 hits me because of desync. And there is nothing you can do as melee about it. Because mobility skills actually give you greater risk than benefit in those situations.

The only things I don't fear compared to ranged classes are flicker mobs, and maybe puncture.

Everything else is just as bad or worse.

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KenshiD wrote:

But more damage is not good.

Sry, but lol.

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KenshiD wrote:

More damage just means you die from reflect.

Because 90% of mobs have refect and its impossible to see the reflect aura. (ironie!)

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KenshiD wrote:

It's also not about damage in general, it's about effectiveness in killing and surviving.

Sure i agree. But in 90% of cases more damage means the mob is dead before he can attack you. Sure, 10% you need longer because you need to be more careful. Still, more damage is faster overall and in most situations safer (a dead mob cant hurt you).

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KenshiD wrote:

Chain, though it reduces the damage, gives you a better chance to kill more monsters in less time with low risk.

Chain is in my opinion broken and should be removed. Low risk is not true, reflect + chain is really really bad (a lot of top HC deaths because of that - without chain they wouldn't have died).

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KenshiD wrote:

Totems, though low cast speed and damage, are much safer than anything else since you dont have to stay in the mobs.

Why do you think sporktotem is played more often than regular spork?

Because spork in closecombat is better, but also means more risk, while a totem doesnt have any risk.

I agree, but still really low killspeed.

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KenshiD wrote:

I mean melee is more fun to play imo, because you are much more active and not just use one skill all the time.

For me its just use the same skill combo over and over again. With glass cannon builds your position has to be really good and you have to know what you / the mob can do. I really like that.

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KenshiD wrote:

But when I face Vaal, I just switch to my bow and spam poison arrow.
Because I dont wanna be smashed, which is only a problem as melee.

Why? Vaal as melee is really easy and safe. Stay away and as soon as he does his ice/rocks/minions jump in, attack 3-4 times, jump out. No risk and no way you'll die (did it in normal and cruel, never was even close to get hit by vaal - and i play with mobile Internet -> bad ping / desync). But i died as ranged to a laser + 2-3rocks in < 1 sec - no way to avoid that.

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Thirion wrote:

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KenshiD wrote:

But more damage is not good.

Sry, but lol.

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KenshiD wrote:

More damage just means you die from reflect.

Because 90% of mobs have refect and its impossible to see the reflect aura. (ironie!)

Nice how you ripped it apart, that's totally not dishonest quoting.

Also it's not "irony" it's sarcasm

lrn2definition

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Sure i agree. But in 90% of cases more damage means the mob is dead before he can attack you. Sure, 10% you need longer because you need to be more careful. Still, more damage is faster overall and in most situations safer (a dead mob cant hurt you).

Yeah but at some point you don't need more damage because you kill everything with 1 or 2 hits anyways. That's where you need effectiveness.
Effectiveness like in Chain Projectiles, or Sport Totems or LMP Pulses.

You get effectiveness only with meleeskills if you build them non close combat (like lightningstrike, or huge AOE sweep)

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Chain is in my opinion broken and should be removed. Low risk is not true, reflect + chain is really really bad (a lot of top HC deaths because of that - without chain they wouldn't have died).

I'm not sure if it should be removed. maybe, maybe not.
And here we have a case where too much damage means death, especially if you have shitty survivability.
It's not about 90% of the time you don't die, it's the 10% of the time where you can that matter.


[/quote]

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For me its just use the same skill combo over and over again. With glass cannon builds your position has to be really good and you have to know what you / the mob can do. I really like that.

It's the same with melee, you cannot just stand in a group and hope everything is fine. If some shitty mob curses you with vulnerability you are history.
Knowing when and how to attack is important just as positioning.
But whatever.

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Why? Vaal as melee is really easy and safe. Stay away and as soon as he does his ice/rocks/minions jump in, attack 3-4 times, jump out. No risk and no way you'll die (did it in normal and cruel, never was even close to get hit by vaal - and i play with mobile Internet -> bad ping / desync). But i died as ranged to a laser + 2-3rocks in < 1 sec - no way to avoid that.

It's just not true.
What do you think my strategy is in cruel and merciless?
I attack whenever he does something that is not smash, and then back off. But sometimes he just starts his animation I back off and still get hit by it.
The other thing is that evasion does absolutely nothing against vaal which is just retarded.
Why is smash not an attack but a spell?
You can easily dodge the stones and the lazer. even if the first lazer hits you the second wont.
And stones, though a bit tricky, can be evaded.



Anyways the case is that melee is not as effective and actually more dangerous as ranged.
If you still deny that, then you are just and idiot I'm sorry
I'm not saying that it is not viable, just saying that there are very limited options for melee, both in skills and in playstyles.
Most mobs you encounter are worse for melee than for ranged and that's something that is bad.

Melee needs a buff, both in form of the passives, skills and supportgems.

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KenshiD wrote:

Nice how you ripped it apart, that's totally not dishonest quoting.

Also it's not "irony" it's sarcasm

lrn2definition

I ripped it appart yes, but my second statement is for both sentances. But nice that you respond to what i tried to say (sarcasm ... seems like i'm able to learn ;))

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KenshiD wrote:

Yeah but at some point you don't need more damage because you kill everything with 1 or 2 hits anyways. That's where you need effectiveness.
Effectiveness like in Chain Projectiles, or Sport Totems or LMP Pulses.

Without an insane weapon you won't 1 or 2 shot even normal mobs endgame. Even then damage against magic / rare mobs always helps. And sure effectiveness always helps.

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KenshiD wrote:

You get effectiveness only with meleeskills if you build them non close combat (like lightningstrike, or huge AOE sweep)

Because you already have (almost) the best effectiveness possible. In PoE mobs are in groups - a dream for melee AOE skills.

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Chain is in my opinion broken and should be removed. Low risk is not true, reflect + chain is really really bad (a lot of top HC deaths because of that - without chain they wouldn't have died).

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KenshiD wrote:

And here we have a case where too much damage means death, especially if you have shitty survivability.

With chain and normal damage no survivability will help you. Some streamer (cant remember the name) died with 3 attacks and 5k life.

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For me its just use the same skill combo over and over again. With glass cannon builds your position has to be really good and you have to know what you / the mob can do. I really like that.

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Why? Vaal as melee is really easy and safe. Stay away and as soon as he does his ice/rocks/minions jump in, attack 3-4 times, jump out. No risk and no way you'll die (did it in normal and cruel, never was even close to get hit by vaal - and i play with mobile Internet -> bad ping / desync). But i died as ranged to a laser + 2-3rocks in < 1 sec - no way to avoid that.

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KenshiD wrote:

It's just not true.
What do you think my strategy is in cruel and merciless?
I attack whenever he does something that is not smash, and then back off. But sometimes he just starts his animation I back off and still get hit by it.

Play more defensive - get out earlier. Sry, but i never play melee and i had no problems my first time - your are doing something wrong (and usually playing to aggressive is what kills you).

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KenshiD wrote:

Anyways the case is that melee is not as effective and actually more dangerous as ranged.
If you still deny that, then you are just and idiot I'm sorry
I'm not saying that it is not viable, just saying that there are very limited options for melee, both in skills and in playstyles.
Most mobs you encounter are worse for melee than for ranged and that's something that is bad.

Melee needs a buff, both in form of the passives, skills and supportgems.

I agree here - we are getting somewhere. People in this thread wrote "melee is not viable/playable" and thats just not true. I agree melee is too weak in merciless, but i think it needs a small nerf in normal (because tanky + 1-hit normal mobs with a magic weapon is OP) - as does GS / LS in normal btw.