Damage Conversion min-maxing

Ok so my question is how does Damage conversion interfere with increase/added damage modifiers. I am aware of the fact that damage conversion cannot exceed 100%, also that "more" modifiers are multiplicative, so we are not talking about these in here. We are talking only for Converted, Increased, Added damage.

Lets Assume I deal 100 physical damage. Now lets assume I use Avatatar of Fire and Molten Strike for a total of 100% Conversion Physical to Fire damage. For easier math lets say Molten Strike does 100% of base damage (not 120% as it is)

Now Lets say I have
50% increase physycal damage. (passives)
30% Increased elemental damage. (passives)

1. First damage is converted then it gets affected by multipliers. Well that is not the case, because that way i Would deal 100 fire (base) + 30% (from ele nods) = 130 fire damage, and these 50% increase in physical are total waste of pasive points.
OR
2. First we get the increase in physical damage, then convert to Fire then increase the result with the ele nods. So that Goes 100 (phys) + 50 (increase phys nodes) = 150 Physical which is then converted to fire... so we have 150 (Fire) + 45 (from 30% increase ele nods) and end up with a total of 195 fire damage.
OR
3. The increase is seperate for both damage types before conversion
100 Phys damage + 50 = 150 physical damage (thats is then converted to fire)
- so 50 Bonus fire damage
100 phys Damage converted to fire - 100 Fire damage + 30 (from ele nods) - 130 Fire damage
- so 30 bonus fire damage
THEN 100 (base)+ 50 + 30 = 180 Fire damage

First example seems logical, but tahts not the case.
Second, i like much, but this way these two modifiers act like multiplicative, and as far as i know multiplicative modifiers contain the word "more", so i don't think that is the case altough it does make sense to me.
The third looks stable. Both "increased" modifiers additive.

Now lets assume I Put a lvl 1 Added fire damage gem to the Molten strike (20% of physical damage added as fire)

What happens now ? Following the third Example (if that is the correct one)
100 (base damage) + 50 (from increase physical % nodes) + 30 (from increase ele nodes) + ???? (from added fire damage)

Does it goes...

100 base + 50 (phys increase) = 150 Phys damage (before conversion) then add 30 fire damage (from 20% added fire gem) + 30 (from increase ele nodes) for a final result ot 100+50+30+30= 210 Damage ? ... I think.. NO... because now we have an extra 30 fire damage that should be scaled with the (% increase ele nodes) and that should go 100+50+30+[(30 + 9(the 30% ele nodes)] = 219 damage ?!

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For example lets say we dont have
50% increase physycal damage. (passives)
30% Increased elemental damage. (passives)

Instead, we have 80% increase physycal damage. If the third example above is the case, then we will have 180 Physical damage (then converted to fire)... same result additive multipliers... But what happens with the 20% Added Fire gem then ?

this is 36 added fire damage so we end up with 180+36=216 fire damage ... so we lose 3 fire damage. (for not having these 30% ele nodes, but we have taken the physical ones) ?

What goes if we go full elemental 80% increased elemental damage rather than 80% phys
Then 100 physical converted to fire (80% increase ele damage) = 180 fire damage
The added fire gem now will benefit only 20 damage since base physical damage is 100
AND these 20 damage will be modified by the (80% ele nodes) for another 16 fire damage
so that goes 100+80+20+16=216 fire damage.

Seems to me that neither the Pure Physical, neither the pure Ele gives best results, but some kinda mix of these two. Just can't imagine if I include a lvl 1 Hatred Aura with 100% cold to fire conversion in the equation :D ... Any thoughts, maths, for min-maxing ?
Please correct me if my calculations (knowledge) are wrong !

I didn't read your whole post, but the way I've learned to think of it:

Your damage conversion (for all intents and purposes) applies also to your modifiers

If you are converting 100% of your physical damage to fire then your +% physical damage also gets converted to +% fire. Maybe not in reality but that's how it effectively works.


100 phys damage with 100% fire conversion

+50% inc physical
+30% inc fire

100 * (100% + 50% + 30%) = 180 fire damage


In the case of added fire damage, i'm not sure if it works with 100% conversion because you are no longer doing any physical damage. Someone else will have to confirm that though.

Well, You are right... for the purposes of calculating primary physical/fire damage you can treat it like this, actually i do the same... but it seems like it does matter if you pick Physical or Elemental nodes, when it comes to calculating Added Damage... such as Added fire damage from gem, or Herald of Ash.. or even Hatred (with Pyre ring).

About the confirmation you are looking for... you can check the Build of the week https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHZXnkFQSmQ

This guy using Herald of Ash... and what Chris said at 1:50... seems like Hatred works too... so I don't see a reason why Added Fire damage Gem would not work at the very same way as the other two. That is why i gave the first Example in my previous post... if, how you said it "because you are no longer doing any physical damage" logically you shouldn't even get the bonuses from "increase physical damage" but that is not the case.. well you do get them, and the Bonuses from Herald, and Hatred, even if you are no longer dealing physical damage. So it seems like the calculation goes "if your damage was not converted then you will get" (as you and me both do the math)... and then comes the final output of , lets say, fire damage.

For the examples I have given in the first post, it is only a 3 damage difference on 100 base damage, so thats about a bit more than 1% increase in the final Flat output damage (219). But keep in mind that the exampls are only for 100 base damage, 80% "increased" multipliers. Now imagine this with 500 2H mace with 200% "increased damage modifiers", then put Herald, Hatred, Added fire damage gem lvl 20 (not 1, as in example), and then several other "more" multipliers in the equation, the difference of 3 damage is not gonna be that small, if you feel me...

"

demivion wrote:

In the case of added fire damage, i'm not sure if it works with 100% conversion because you are no longer doing any physical damage. Someone else will have to confirm that though.

yes, "added % of phys damage as" is based on phys damage before conversions

"

but it seems like it does matter if you pick Physical or Elemental nodes, when it comes to calculating Added Damage

if you have 100% conversion from X to Y, then it does not matter if you icrease X or Y, it will be the same

if you dont have 100% conversion, than it is better to increase the base

e: edited to explain more

added Fire basically means x% extra coversion

100 base +30%added fire+AoF+MS+50%phys+50%ffire

> 130 converted to fire dmg
> 130*(1+50%+50%)=260fire dmg

or without AoF and MS

100 phys +50%phys+50%fire +added fire 30%

30 converted to fire dmg and 100 as phys

30 fire*(1+50 phys%+50%fire)=60 fire dmg
100 phys*(1+50%phys)=150 phys dmg

so you will 150phys and 60fire

incresed phys% is exactly the same as %fire dmg for the converted part, but %fire does nothing for non converted part which we can conclude that incresed phys% is always better or atleast as good as fire%

"

Ludvator wrote:

if you have 100% conversion from X to Y, then it does not matter if you icrease X or Y, it will be the same

if you dont have 100% conversion, than it is better to increase the base

e: edited to explain more

If you both have read my first post (i know its long, but still...)
You wouldn't bring me nothing new with your posts

I will do it again. No conversion. You have 30% increase fire damage in nodes.
You deal 100 Physical damage. You put Added fire damage (lvl1 - 20%)
Now you do 100 physical + 20 Fire (from Gem) + 6 fire damage (from the 30% nodes incraseing the fire from the gem)
so 100 + 20 + 6 = 100 Physical + 26 Fire

But with 100% conversion AND Added fire gem/Herald/Hatred it goes completly different which "increase" modifiers you will chose, whether Physical or elemental. I am talking about these cases. As I did the math two posts ago seems like the values of these two Physycal/elemental DO affect the final result in damage, when "Added as extra damage" stuff goes in the equation.

ok lets do the math one more time with only incresed phys%

100 base+ 100%conversion +added fire 20%+ 50% increased phys

100 base>120 converted to fire

120fire*(1+50%) = 180 fire dmg
better
physical nodes are always better or as good as ele nodes when it comes to conversion or added dmg% as x

Im completely lost in your posts. Maybe defining variables and using equations instead long sentences would..

I will use my example instead:

100 base phys damage, 35% added fire, 30% hatred
80% increased phys, 40% increased elemental, 20% increased fire, 10% increased cold


1) no conversions

physical part - 100*(1 + 0,8 ) = 180
fire part - 35*(1 + 0,8 + 0,4 + 0,2) = 84
cold part - 30*(1 + 0,8 + 0,4 + 0,1) = 69


2) 50% conversion (Infernal blow initial hit)

physical part - 50*(1 + 0,8 ) = 90
fire part - (35 + 50)*(1 + 0,8 + 0,4 + 0,2) = 204
cold part - 30*(1 + 0,8 + 0,4 + 0,1) = 69


3) 100% conversion with AoF (Infernal blow initial hit + Avatar of Fire)

fire part (without damage from Hatred) - (100+35)*(1 + 0,8 + 0,4 + 0,2) = 324
fire part (damage from Hatred) (30/2)*(1+ 0,8 + 0,4 + 0,2 + 0,1) = 37,5

hope that helps. If you manage to get your example into some kind of equation, I would be able to clear things up for you

e: typos

"

twiztedmind wrote:

Ok so my question is how does Damage conversion interfere with increase/added damage modifiers. I am aware of the fact that damage conversion cannot exceed 100%, also that "more" modifiers are multiplicative, so we are not talking about these in here. We are talking only for Converted, Increased, Added damage.

Lets Assume I deal 100 physical damage. Now lets assume I use Avatatar of Fire and Molten Strike for a total of 100% Conversion Physical to Fire damage. For easier math lets say Molten Strike does 100% of base damage (not 120% as it is)

Now Lets say I have
50% increase physycal damage. (passives)
30% Increased elemental damage. (passives)
...
Now lets assume I Put a lvl 1 Added fire damage gem to the Molten strike (20% of physical damage added as fire)

What happens now?

This is how I calculate this using "tags".

Base: 100 [physical]
With Added Fire: 100 [physical], 20 [physical, fire]
With 100% phys to fire conversion: 100 [physical, fire], 20 [physical, fire] = 120 [physical, fire].
With "increased" passives: 120 * (1 + 0.5 + 0.3) = 216 fire damage.

Same example without AoF for the sake of it:

Base: 100 [physical]
With Added Fire: 100 [physical], 20 [physical, fire]
With 60% phys to fire conversion: 40 [physical], 60 [physical, fire], 20 [physical, fire] = 40 [physical], 80 [physical, fire]
With "increased" passives: 40 * (1 + 0.5) = 60 physical, 80 * (1 + 0.5 + 0.3) = 144 fire, for a total of 204 damage.

@sunnyray really like the tags, keeps things well organised and ould be used easily with multiple conversions like phys>cold>fire