RMT Sites are now making their own items and selling copies.

"
Xavderion wrote:
Prove me wrong by quantifying the effect of RMT on the average player.


This is what you resort to? Just take a look at your own sig (oh the irony!).

P.
Last edited by mrpetrov on July 16, 2014 8:40 AM
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mrpetrov wrote:
"
Xavderion wrote:
Prove me wrong by quantifying the effect of RMT on the average player.


This is what you resort to? Just take a look at your own sig (oh the irony!).

P.


Yes, I want proof, what's wrong about that?. Everyone claims how RMT is ruining their PoE experience, but nobody can show how exactly it happens. Usually it boils down to X being jelly of Y having better items than him. If you're a player aiming for #1 spot on the ladder, I can see how RMT affects you a ton. But if you're an average player, I really don't see it. Pls show.
Schrodinger's douchebag: A guy who says really offensive things and decides whether or not he was joking based upon the reaction of people around him.
"
DirkAustin wrote:
Im so glad i give away items instead of buying or selling them.

Greed knows no bounds.


Yes, and double yes. The only type of player not affected by a wild west trading system. Wich is why it is SO important not to balance your game around a totally unfair economy.
Last edited by Lugrum on July 16, 2014 8:49 AM
"
Xavderion wrote:
"
mrpetrov wrote:
"
Xavderion wrote:
Prove me wrong by quantifying the effect of RMT on the average player.


This is what you resort to? Just take a look at your own sig (oh the irony!).

P.


Yes, I want proof, what's wrong about that?. Everyone claims how RMT is ruining their PoE experience, but nobody can show how exactly it happens. Usually it boils down to X being jelly of Y having better items than him. If you're a player aiming for #1 spot on the ladder, I can see how RMT affects you a ton. But if you're an average player, I really don't see it. Pls show.


I certainly didn't claim RMT is ruining anyone's PoE experience (trading ruined mine, but I can't speak for what goes on in other people's heads).

I'm claiming RMT has an effect on the economy. My hypothesis is that it is a significant effect, but that's not possible to "prove" beyond doubt given the lack of available data. Can you prove it doesn't have an effect on the economy at large? No, you can't either.

Doesn't mean one of us isn't right.

P.
"
mrpetrov wrote:
"
Xavderion wrote:
"
mrpetrov wrote:
Do you folks somehow think they *won't* be doing this in the new leagues? The new leagues are more profitable and players are more competitive in the new leagues, so I would hazard to say they will definitely be replicating this practice when the new leagues start.

With a bit of real life capital behind them it's easy to beat mom-and-pop/individual crafters at their own game.

But RMT isn't an issue in the game's economy, right? Not as big as you think? Doesn't affect you?

I look forward to Xav and the rest of the RMT apologists jumping all over these typical excuses.

P.


I don't see it being more profitable in new leagues, yeah the demand might be higher (not even sure about that) but the cost of creating such an item in a fresh league is also much higher.

And yes, RMT isn't an issue for me and it doesn't affect me if some PayPal warrior buys a 250 dollar weapon *shrug* I (and 99.99% of other players) don't compete for top ladder spots after all.


I didn't think you'd actually just walk straight into it, but you never cease to underwhelm me.

You do understand that prices are driven by marginal buyers and sellers, right? If you trade at all then RMT affects you, because it affects prices in the economy. I'm glad your lack of understanding of economics shelters you from this disquieting fact of life.

P.

PS: Perhaps soon we'll have GGG announcing a high profile closure of an RMT site's PoE services as evidence that the "war on RMT has been won"!


You do realize it is a War that can't be won. It would be like trying to rid the world of cockroaches. rMT will exist unfortunately unless GGG just removes trading. I personally would rather take the hit in the economy with it existing and keep ability to interact. Account bound games completely nullify the purpose of multiplayer online games for me and friends I play with.

The expectation that GGG will close a site is just unreasonable. How would you propose they do that ?

Instead, think about the logistics of creating a mirrored item which has a name that will be all over the place (loath bane, etc). The first mirrored item will be highly suspicious. Once an rmt mirrored item is confirmed, GGG hopefully has the tools to locate them and take action.

Closing a site or "winning" the war is simply unreasonable though.
"
Xavderion wrote:
"
mrpetrov wrote:
"
Xavderion wrote:
Prove me wrong by quantifying the effect of RMT on the average player.


This is what you resort to? Just take a look at your own sig (oh the irony!).

P.


Yes, I want proof, what's wrong about that?. Everyone claims how RMT is ruining their PoE experience, but nobody can show how exactly it happens. Usually it boils down to X being jelly of Y having better items than him. If you're a player aiming for #1 spot on the ladder, I can see how RMT affects you a ton. But if you're an average player, I really don't see it. Pls show.


RMT causes inflation in the economy. Price levels rise as a result of it. Your purchasing power remains the same because you do not RMT. Thus, it's harder for you to obtain goods vs someone who RMT's.
IGN:Vennttorr - Level 100 Witch - 1st Witch to 100.

My mirror service thread: http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/811499

My Crit Arc build: http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/965159
"
mrpetrov wrote:

I certainly didn't claim RMT is ruining anyone's PoE experience (trading ruined mine, but I can't speak for what goes on in other people's heads).

I'm claiming RMT has an effect on the economy. My hypothesis is that it is a significant effect, but that's not possible to "prove" beyond doubt given the lack of available data. Can you prove it doesn't have an effect on the economy at large? No, you can't either.

Doesn't mean one of us isn't right.

P.


Here's the thing, if the effect is significant, it must be possible to show how significant it is, either with numbers or somehow else. I can't do that, that's why I think the effect is insignificant. Hope that makes sense.
Schrodinger's douchebag: A guy who says really offensive things and decides whether or not he was joking based upon the reaction of people around him.
"
Xavderion wrote:
"
mrpetrov wrote:

I certainly didn't claim RMT is ruining anyone's PoE experience (trading ruined mine, but I can't speak for what goes on in other people's heads).

I'm claiming RMT has an effect on the economy. My hypothesis is that it is a significant effect, but that's not possible to "prove" beyond doubt given the lack of available data. Can you prove it doesn't have an effect on the economy at large? No, you can't either.

Doesn't mean one of us isn't right.

P.


Here's the thing, if the effect is significant, it must be possible to show how significant it is, either with numbers or somehow else. I can't do that, that's why I think the effect is insignificant. Hope that makes sense.


That is incorrect logic. To be able to show the effect of X on Y, you need to be able to show what Y would be without the effect of X. Sadly, we have no data on Y either with or without the effect of X. The combination of lack of data and quasi-survivor bias does not mean that X has had no effect on Y.

What we can reiterate is the established logic of economics and inflation applied elsewhere in the world, to PoE. Ventor has done this just above in a very simple way. Take a re-read of it and let us know if you don't agree with his logic?

P.
Last edited by mrpetrov on July 16, 2014 9:00 AM
"
Xavderion wrote:
"
mrpetrov wrote:

I certainly didn't claim RMT is ruining anyone's PoE experience (trading ruined mine, but I can't speak for what goes on in other people's heads).

I'm claiming RMT has an effect on the economy. My hypothesis is that it is a significant effect, but that's not possible to "prove" beyond doubt given the lack of available data. Can you prove it doesn't have an effect on the economy at large? No, you can't either.

Doesn't mean one of us isn't right.

P.


Here's the thing, if the effect is significant, it must be possible to show how significant it is, either with numbers or somehow else.
That doesn't make sense at all. Just because it is significant (wich we don't know because we don't have exact data) doesn't suddenly give us exact data.
Last edited by Lugrum on July 16, 2014 9:01 AM
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Ventor wrote:

RMT causes inflation in the economy. Price levels rise as a result of it. Your purchasing power remains the same because you do not RMT. Thus, it's harder for you to obtain goods vs someone who RMT's.


I agree with everything you said. My point is, the inflation caused solely by RMT is miniscule. Hundreds of exalts enter the economy every day, that's what causes most of the inflation. People playing in an endless league and climbing the item spiral near the top is what causes inflation. RMT plays a very small part in it.
Schrodinger's douchebag: A guy who says really offensive things and decides whether or not he was joking based upon the reaction of people around him.

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