POE resource management woes

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Ceykey wrote:

BM need to change big time. Like Anubite said we need stamina for attackers, mana for spell casters even we need both of them for hybrid builds. Hording Hp and regen and linking your main skill with BM gem allows u to open 2-3 percentage base auras which is OP as hell.

People have their points when they complain about BM it supposed to help the attack base characters to sustain their high speed attacks. EK and FP maras made that keystone overpowered it wasnt like that when back at CB.

I dont like global mana and i dont like the BM gem + aura stacking we need changes.

Again, the problem isn't BM being OP, it's mana being so weak. BM is working as intended, supports skills, high cost skills means you'll need high regen and you can't use % auras without sacrificing alot of EHP. Mana should be able to do all those things with no risk to survivability, until it does people will see BM as OP. Nothing in the mana category in general is remotely OP, it's the that default is so terrible.

Investing in mana nodes, mana+ or % on gear and going for EB is already a drawback because mana itself doesnt improve your survibility or dps. In return they can stack auras, so its kinda balanced. Nerfing auras is a BAD IDEA!
2things that are out of balane imo: spell costs are too high so if you dont go for EB you WILL suffer. There is no alternative way to make mana sustainable.
Rangers are forced to get BM because they r attack speed based characters and dont have any good mana nodes.

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Moosifer wrote:

If mana regen was higher, making max pool smaller, using alot of auras would be unnecessary and something one would have to be seeking to do.

Oh, you'd still be using Wrath Anger and Hatred, oh yes. Because the game is balanced around the assumption you already do.

Auras are busted because they lack a cap. You can't even add meaningful new auras in the game because of the current system. Add an aura to add phys or chaos damage? Massive free DPS to everyone. Add an aura that adds 20% More Life (Oak Saaage)? Everyone has 20% more life now.

Put a hard cap on that (maybe even lock it to working on mana-only) and then magically, the radius stat on them will start to actually matter a tiny bit. Because people won't already have everything they want.

I can appreciate they're trying to use "old school" soft balance: nascent recharge times, mana choking people who try to have fun... But mana costs have rarely kept anyone from doing anything in these sorts of games.

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Investing in mana nodes, mana+ or % on gear and going for EB is already a drawback because mana itself doesnt improve your survibility or dps.

^ This. No one wants mana.

Increase mana regen in tree.

Lower/get rid of (some) max mana in tree, and replace it with mana regen.

Done

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LimitedRooster wrote:

Mana systems were only ever chastity belts to deny people fun. Remember how it was in Diablo 2? It made the game boring, painful shit until later in the game when it ceased to matter at all?

True, but let's also recall Blizzard's retrofit solution to overcranked spell casters: Cool-down timers. Personally, I think that cure was far worse than the disease it was intended to fix. PoE has so far managed to avoid imposing cool-down timers on all but a few spells, and I think it's a much better approach.

Mana management is not merely a tactical nuisance; it's a strategic consideration as well. If there were no associated mana costs, there'd be no reason not to pile on as many support gems as possible to buff every single skill. Players would then complain about not having enough sockets and links to hold all the cost-free combos you could make.

Ideally, a game should be balanced so that no single resource becomes the sole overriding limitation on strategic and tactical gameplay. With mana, you should be able to readily acquire enough to repeatedly cast secondary and suboptimal skills, but not so much that you can endlessly spam high-power endgame skills. For that kind of firepower, you should have to sacrifice something else of value, such as hit-points in a classic glass-cannon build.

Thoughts about this perhaps?
http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/302952

^If the sole point of mana is "strategic consideration", then I'm sure it's not the ONLY way it can possibly happen right?
I guess nobody ever thought of a "perfect" way to include strategy and balance without mana in ARPGs, but could removing mana somehow solve the whole "mana is a nuisance" problem, but keeping that "strategic consideration"?



Also, for people saying "increase mana regen", I guess you mean "increase flat mana regen" right?
Because percentage mana regen is....well kind of completely useless at some points. If you only have 4 mana regen per second (for instance), then even having +300% mana regen is useless (like Paua amulets and stuff).

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gonzaw wrote:

If the sole point of mana is "strategic consideration", then I'm sure it's not the ONLY way it can possibly happen right?
I guess nobody ever thought of a "perfect" way to include strategy and balance without mana in ARPGs, but could removing mana somehow solve the whole "mana is a nuisance" problem, but keeping that "strategic consideration"?

The thread you linked to above proposes to substitute skill cool-down timers as a replacement for mana management. I think that's a terrible idea. Cool-down timers are inflexible straitjackets that tend to reduce your combat tactics to mindless attack spamming. I'd much rather have the flexibility of choosing between transient burst-fire versus moderated sustained-fire.

Strategic consideration is not the ONLY point of mana management, but it is no less important than tactical issues. If there were no mana management issues, there'd little point in using anything but the most powerful attack skills available. Good tactical balance requires the cost of using a skill to be proportional to its power. Otherwise, the only viable strategies will be those that make use of only the most powerful skills.

What if Auras didnt 'reserve' mana but lowered Max (final) Mana? Base mana regen could be bumped up and there would be a noticeable drawback (less mana regen) to using a bunch of auras.

Its that or limit the number of auras a'la totems / minions, imo

B.

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SL4Y3R wrote:

Increase mana regen in tree.

Lower/get rid of (some) max mana in tree, and replace it with mana regen.

Done

Eh, max mana isn't a problem, EB is where most people get crazy mana.

I was quite vocal in CB about my feelings on GGG's agenda to make Mana a finite resource.

Quotes like:

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Chris wrote:

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Hilbert wrote:

You guys seriously hate mana don't you?

Yes, we want resources to be constrained so that they are stronger game mechanics.

Made me sad.

The nerfs to Clarity twinned with the low amounts of Mana Regen passives made me realise that GGG want Mana to always be in short supply & my dreams of being able to spam high cast speed spells would always be constrained.

At least the Duelist got some mana!...better luck next time Shadow.