Minion Damage versus Melee Physical Damage gems

Ripped from another thread, since it was off-topic:

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Zinsho wrote:

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Annihilat0r wrote:

Which one is better, Minion damage or Melee Physical Damage?

In combination with Raise Zombie + Multistrike + Faster attacks + Melee Splash.

Melee Physical Damage will add more:

Assuming 20/20 Gems:
Melee Physical = 10% Increased and 49% More
Minion Damage = 92% Increased

With just Multistrike and Melee Splash you're doing the following (%age of base)
Single : 171.49%
Splash : 140.87%

With Minion Damage
Single : 220.95%
Splash : 181.50%

With Melee Physical Damage
Single : 263.54%
Splash : 216.48%

This is assuming 105% from Tree, 57% increased from Multistrike and MeleeSplash, 36% Less from Multistrike, 16% less single target from Melee Splash and 31% Less in splash.

Given that we're only comparing MD and MPD, all else is equal. Can we not pretty much remove the skill tree and the other gems from the equation?

That leaves a 20/20 MD doing 92% increased damage, and the MPD doing 59% increased damage. Hence my confusion. I don't understand the significance of representing the MPD's numbers by "10% Increased and 49% More" while you sum the damage and gem values (92%) for MD. The English in the descriptions seems to be the same:

MD: +0.75% increased Minion Damage
MPD: +0.5% increased Melee Physical Damage

Therefore I can't see how you determined MPD was more effective.

Two more points:
1. If you're correct, MD is useless. It does less damage and costs more mana to use. (The strength requirement on MPD is of no consequence.)
2. While Annihilat0r is clearly talking about a 5-link item, gaining "+2 levels to minion gems" from a 4-link hat is probably produces better zombies. This bonus affects the zombie gem as well as the MD gem. This point is off topic but worth mentioning.

There is a difference between "increased" and "more"...

From PoE wiki:

Modifiers that use the word more act as multipliers, and stack multiplicatively with all other modifiers, while increased modifiers will stack additively with other increased modifiers.

I think TigerSpook is on to something here:

Assuming you have all the minion damage nodes

"

Minion damage: 110% + 92% = 202%

vs

Melee Physical damage: (110% + 10) * 1.49 = 178.8%

Lets introduce another more multiplier into the equation: remote mine

"

Minion damage: (110% + 92%) * 1.48 = 298.96%

vs

Melee Physical damage: (110% + 10) * (1.49 * 1.48) = 264.624%

But on a 6L...

RZ + faster attack + multistrike + meleesplash + minion damage + melee physical damage

"

A level 68 Raised Zombie (i.e. summoned by a level 20 gem) on a character with no specific minion bonuses, attacks for 468-1093 physical damage.

MD setup (assuming main target for splash):
[ passive(110) + mstrike(67) + Msplash(57) + MPD(10) + MD(92) ] * [mstrike(.64) * Msplash(.84) * MPD(1.49)] = [336] * [.8] = 268.8% = 3.688

1726 - 4031 physical damage

attack speed(1.54) * Mstrike(2.07) = 3.12(rounded) atk/sec

5385 - 12577 damage per/sec

remote mine setup (assuming main target for splash):
[ passive(110) + mstrike(67) + Msplash(57) + MPD(10)] * [mstrike(.64) * Msplash(.84) * MPD(1.49)] *Mine(1.48)= [244] * [1.186] = 289.3% = 3.893

1822 - 4255 physical damage

speed

5685 - 13276 damage per/sec

In the end MPD combined with another multiplier like remote mine, wins out in that 6link combo

where'd you get the info for zombie base damage? do you have them for skels and spirits and the like too?

"

mattc3303 wrote:

I think TigerSpook is on to something here:

Assuming you have all the minion damage nodes

"

Minion damage: 110% + 92% = 202%

vs

Melee Physical damage: (110% + 10) * 1.49 = 178.8%

[ ... ]

Slight errors in that calculation

Tree increases damage by 105%

So actual Damage is:
Minion Damage : (100% [base] + 105% [tree] + 92% [gem]) = 297%
Melee Physical : (100% [base] + 105% [tree] + 10% [gem]) * 1.49 [Gem] = 384%

You forgot the 100% base damage that is also multiplied by 49%

With a bit of calculation (I can provide the spreadsheet used to perform the calculations):
All gems at 20/20

%Damage listed below is DPS if assuming base attack speed is 1APS. Multiply by actual APS and you'll get actual damage increase.

Assuming no bonuses from gear and that you want Melee Splash for AoE damage on mobs
Best 4 Socket Zombies = RZ + MultiStrike + Melee Splash + Melee Physical Damage
561% to main target, 461% in AoE
+2 Minion Helm = 701% main, 576% AoE (Assumes 25% more damage for the 2 levels).

5 Sockets = Add Remote Mine or Faster Attacks (~10% difference)
6 Sockets = Add Minion Damage if not using Mines, otherwise add Faster Attacks

I did not calculate how much damage Empower would add since there is no clear way to determine how much damage each level adds to the Zombies.

Wearing Minion enhancing gear (+%Damage to minions) will make Minion Damage even 'weaker' relative to Melee Physical Damage because it is additive rather than multiplicative.

so? Melee phyz damage is better then MD ?

If you have not seen this here is the link to minion damage from GGG. I would be interested to see an updated sheet that calculated 5l and 6l damage based on MPD, MS etc.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ahqk9lptRHcMdHdjM1hTNTV1NzhBeEtQYlVvM1NvSFE#gid=0

Cheers.

This is based on ALL MINION PASSIVES in the TREE ONLY combined with the data supplied from GGG about Zombies. All data is based on a level 20 zombie.

Average DPS does NOT take into account CRITICALS.

There is one important thing I think that is just misunderstood:

1. Minion damage vs melee physical in a vacuum makes minion damage better. It is 92% increased vs 10% increased and 59% more (more means multiplicative with every modifier and increased means additive with all other increased modifiers) thus minion damage gives 192% damage, while melee physical gives 110% x 159% = 175%

2. However, we have to assume the build in discussion already is taking increased modifiers. Lets say 100% increased modifier (tho actual full summoner builds should reach 150-200% increased dmg) in this case we get the following:

Minion damage:
increased modifiers = 100% + 92% = 192%
multiplicative modifiers = None = x1
Total damage = (100 + increased) x multiplicative = (100 + 192) x 1 = 292%

Melee physical:
increased modifiers = 100% + 10% = 110%
multiplicative modifiers = 59% = x 1.59
Total damage = (100 + increased) x multiplicative = (100 + 110) x 1.59 = 334%

3. We can conclude that increased modifiers are good in a vacuum but become less significant when theres more of those modifiers around, while multiplicative stays multiplicative and always does the same

This Makes no sense. MPD applies to all physical skill Gems, while MD only applies to Minion Gems.
So MD should be a better Gem the MPD, because its restricted to Minions..... More Restrictions should be More Damage.