Are Mages A Race?

A Mage is a class or a profession, I have no idea why someone would think it's a race or a species, it doesn't make any sense.

In a game lore, certain races can be better mages but they still aren't mages by default, they just have more potential to be one.

Mages are things you put on cars to make them look cool. They help you win races. :-|

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MonstaMunch wrote:

I'm having a discussion with someone. We have a fundamentally different understanding of mage lore in general fantasy settings.

The question basically boils down to whether mages are a race of their own, or whether they are just individually members of whatever wider race they belong to (presumably defined by species).

Or to put the question in a different context: If you were playing a game and the playable races were listed as Orcs, Goblins, Elves, Mages, would you think to yourself "hrm, that's weird, mages aren't a race", or would you be more like "yup, that makes sense, standard".

Thanks in advance for any constructive input.

ps: Yes, I realize they are fictional and therefore there isn't technically a correct answer, but I think it's something people may have opinions about one way or the other.

This is a fun subject :-)

In the fantasy reading I have done (which I'm sure just scratches the surface) there is a spectrum that ranges to both types. They range from the human mages such as Harold Shea who accidentally learns how to cast spells (in The Incompleat Enchanter) to races such as the Pan Tang who have a natural proclivity for spells to the Melniboone (Elric series)who are a race shaped by their pacts for power, to those with inherent powers such as the Sandestin or Daihak of Jack Vance's Dying Earth series.

In general though, it does seem as though arcane bloodlines do not play a part in mage ability as often as knowledge of the arcane.

Hmm, now I'm thinking there must be a fiction series where the two types (magical race and those with magical knowledge)face off against each other.

If there is, I'm putting my money on the ones with more Ioun Stones.

It simply derives from the nature of magic in the universe the mages are.
Well, if the author don't explain magic sufficiently, you might have a problem.



Take Wheel of Time : connection to the source was possible for everyone, but then only some keep the ability and it was studied by the in-universe character and conclude that bloodline surely affect connection to the source, but it clearly can leap generation and completly fade. I'm supposing Aes Sedai = Mage here.

Mistborn : totaly bloodlines here. Again, people seemed to have common ancestors, but they parted enough so that only one culture keep "magical" power.

Warbreaker : race (? too old, but it is greatly explained).

Yeah, fan of Brandon Sanderson.

Dragonball : if sayan = mage, then bloodlines, but it seems they only have huge proficiency whith power, not restricted acces.

Naruto : secret technique are family related, still everyone can use ninjustsu.

D&D : nothing to do with blood, but INT (or CHA). Also, hard training.

LotR and HP : already said. Elves and I think dwarves also have access to some kind of magic to.

L5R : hard training.

Star Wars : some few races cannot use or be influenced by "the force". So... lot of different races make the mage race ?

Vampire (Dark World) : somewhat a disease... Mage also existed and I think it was proficiency and hard training.

WoW : hard training and races... depending on the type of magic.

Touhou : beer

PoE : we don't know ? do we ?



I think the most common view in RPG is : having different magic systems that are distributed among races and is the result of hard training or gift off greater being.
I recommand this : http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SufficientlyAnalyzedMagic

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Mark_GGG wrote:

Certainly, the situation as presented in the OP doesn't seem remotely standard, and I'd find it abnormal enough that I'd do a double-take and make sure I read it right - particularly since having Elves and Mages separately indicates that elves couldn't be mages, which flies right in the face of a common fantasy stereotype.

This is basically what I needed to know. Thanks.

My personal opinion is the opposite of yours on the subject, but after having asked around a fair bit, it does seem that I'm in a tiny minority on that, so I'll go with your view on it rather than mine.

fwiw, my view is that a person can belong to more than one race, and that being of a particular species doesn't make you exclusive to that race. For example, elves (as you rightly pointed out) can be mages in pretty much any lore you read, so they can be of both races. Dwarves on the other hand are often prohibited (in lore) from being mages due to a lack of ability/affinity for magic, and instead have a natural resistance to it (though this isn't consistent, it depends on the lore).

The compromise we're making is that the races will be Orc, Goblins, Elves, and an as yet unnamed race of an assortment of magically possessed "race neutral" creatures. In terms of what has already been designed and planned, it's important that specialization in magic is an option separate from heavy melee, zergspam, and rangers/rogues as represented by the three other races. I think it can be done without upsetting the lore enthusiasts, possibly by not even referring to the other 3 as races to begin with.

Thanks again to all who contributed opinions.

I think it's totally dependent on the lore of each individual world to be honest. Mainstream fantasy, especially video games, shows us that Mage is a profession.

This reverberates in other lore - such as Star Wars, Elder Scrolls, etc. Though I'm not entirely certain that this isn't more so due to the ease that comes with creating a high fantasy setting in which the loremasters/writers can go willy-nilly and create anything they want without having to explain it much (I'm much more privy to low-fantasy lore).

While other, low fantasy, worlds - such as LoTR - explain to us that the Istari were brought to the world with supernatural powers, and are often looked upon as being a queer, almost stigmatic race - something that's not natural and most inhabitants of Middle Earth would probably consider them more of a risk than a reward.

Either way, as others have pointed out there are examples of mages being both a race, and a profession and I think that the author of the lore, whichever route they choose, should be respected based on their views of the interworkings of their world.

In my experience this kind of discussion mostly comes up when people familiar with two different types of fantasy discuss fantasy literature.

The Harry Potter type crowd, and the Dungeons & Dragons type crowd.

In the Harry Potter books there are the 'wizards' that are born with innate talent for magic, and is most probably a subspecies.

On the other hand, the Dungeons & Dragons crowd would recognise the wizards from Harry Potter as sorcerers, arcane magic users born with innate talent for magic, whether their ancestors were celestial, infernal, or draconic. Whereas a wizard in D&D is a learned scholar who has been taught or taught themselves the language of magic. The D&D wizard is more likely to be called a mage than the sorcerer.

So really, it all depends on what you mean by 'mage'.

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Kiwanja wrote:

The Harry Potter type crowd, and the Dungeons & Dragons type crowd.

Well, that kind of implies that the idea of a mage being it's own race is a newer idea. As others have noted, Tolkien had them pegged as very much a separate race and seemed to go out of his way in describing them as such.

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Either way, as others have pointed out there are examples of mages being both a race, and a profession and I think that the author of the lore, whichever route they choose, should be respected based on their views of the interworkings of their world.

I think this is what it boils down to. The problem is that (as happens in most games) some people get into the lore, and some don't bother with it. I'm concerned about possible kneejerk reactions from the latter group when they see mages as a race and just declare it to be wrong without actually reading into it.

Regardless, as noted, the issue has been solved somewhat by renaming mages and possibly by not referring to any of the races as races to begin with. The main thing is that the four "groups" kind of needed to exist, and it was more just about coming up with a plausible framework for them to exist within.

Thanks again for everyone's input.