Dual wield daggers = fail ?

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Stt3r0 wrote:
is there any reason to go DW daggers rather then swords ?
Style points?

Seriously though, the main reason to dual-wield daggers would be that you want to be a dual-wield melee Shadow. If that's your character, sword passives aren't really much of an option, they're just too far away. And the main reason to be a dual-wield melee shadow, from what I can see, is to exploit the Chaos Inoculation/Ghost Reaver/Blood Rage combo. The downside, of course, is no Cleave.
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Zakaluka wrote:
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Stt3r0 wrote:
Dual strike dont have downscaling
Yes, it does. Not in an obvious way...

It basically starts with 200% damage efficiency. Even if it's only gaining 3% per level, nothing else is ever going to catch up, ever, so pointing out that other gems improve better as they gain levels is a moot point. Plus, the efficiency is multiplicative, so DS's 3% per level is actually 6%, compared to Heavy Strike (150% efficiency) gaining 4% per level which is... also 6%. For dual-wielding you can't mess with Dual Strike for single-target.

Cleave is slightly more contentious. Not in terms of damage, because it still wins that war as easily as DS wins at single-target. However, the AoE isn't that great, and some other skills like Lightning Strike do offer advantages like being able to attack at range. I think Cleave still wins, but it's a much closer contest.
I agree with [your QQ,] problem is, everything else I played makes me come back here. PoE fucks me better.
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Last edited by ScrotieMcB on January 27, 2013 7:44 PM
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ScrotieMcB wrote:

It basically starts with 200% damage efficiency. Even if it's only gaining 3% per level, nothing else is ever going to catch up, ever, so pointing out that other gems improve better as they gain levels is a moot point


Right, so the whole thing about other skills having additional damage components has no bearing. Hm.

And frenzy, with quality, is straight up better for damage output in a suitable build (7 charges, that is) than anything in the game, dual wield or single wield. This fact is indisputable.

18% atk speed per charge / 12% IPD per charge. 7 charges.
126% IAS / 84% IPD - giveup the double hit effect of DS.
In comparison to: double hit effect with a 47% IPD and 60% incr critical strike chance. Hum.

Frenzy has considerably better raw single target dps output than dual strike, if you build properly. Even dual wielding. Maybe even with wrath going, since so much of frenzy's bonus is attack speed.

Comparing the total damage output of any real raw damage ability to GH is unfair; the example was combined. Damage Effectiveness plus defensive utility. Can't erase half that criteria and then make any kind of comparison.

Last edited by Zakaluka on January 27, 2013 8:04 PM
So, you might think I'm trying to claim that dual wield is awesome and works great. I'm not - dual wield definitely needs help. We've come way off track; all I'm suggesting is that nobody has identified the real problem.

Again, it comes down to this: skill support. Dual wield in the shadow area is probably fine, but you only get single target native skill support, and have to look elsewhere for AoE.

1) If you stay in the shadow area and dual wield you're going to be using one of the single target abilities. Viper, Frenzy, Dual strike, ..... The build needs more. You have to build across the tree for str to support cleave or LS, or you have to go hybrid.

2) If you start in the duelist area, which makes great sense for dual wield, you're screwed in a similar way. Staying in the duelist area for dual wield passives is OK, but then the only specific weapon passives you can get are sword/axe. Claw is available too, but those clusters are aimed at shadow, not duelist. Again, skill support. What can you do with axe/sword? Cleave/dual strike are the obvious choices for a well rounded combat strategy. But cleave has pretty major geometry and defensive problems.

So yeah, dual wield is a bit problematic right now. But not because of daggers, or crit; not because skills don't work well enough while dual wielding. It's a defensive problem with AoE/multitarget abilities that require you to take a vulnerable position. Or it's a geometry problem with abilities that can only do single target damage.
Last edited by Zakaluka on January 27, 2013 8:21 PM
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Zakaluka wrote:
And frenzy, with quality, is straight up better for damage output in a suitable build (7 charges, that is) than anything in the game, dual wield or single wield. This fact is indisputable.
Funny since I'm about to dispute it.
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Zakaluka wrote:
18% atk speed per charge / 12% IPD per charge. 7 charges.
126% IAS / 84% IPD - giveup the double hit effect of DS.
In comparison to: double hit effect with a 47% IPD and 60% incr critical strike chance. Hum.

There is an important difference between increased and more. Increased effects are additive, more effects are multiplicative.

Like you said, Dual Strike adds 47% increased physical damage (IPD), and 60% increased crit chance, but also 100% more attack speed (two attacks at once).

Frenzy adds 126% increased attack speed (IAS), 84% IPD, but only 10% more damage.

What this means is that Dual Strike can eventually out-perform Frenzy on characters who already have large amounts of IPD and/or IAS from passives. Let's say a character had 100% IAS and 250% IPD already (Strength adds IPD):
* Frenzy would make him the equivalent of 63% more attack speed, 36.4% more physical damage, and 10% more elemental damage. Grand total: 122% more physical DPS, 79% more elemental DPS.
* Dual Strike would do the equivalent of 13.4% more physical damage and 100% more attack speed. Grand total: 126.8% more physical DPS, 100% more elemental DPS.

That's assume two of the same weapon. With Dual Strike, this isn't optimal. For example, using a Spiraled Foil (1.7aps) mainhand and a Legion Sword (1.2aps) off-hand has a working aps of 1.407, but with Dual Strike that aps jumps to 3.4, which is 141% more, not just 100% more. Further optimizing attack-speed mainhand while optimizing damage-per-hit offhand can make this effect even more pronounced.

Conclusion: At high levels, Dual Strike usually wins.
Caveats:
* The example assumes significant passive and gear investment in IPD and IAS. If this isn't the case (for example, a very tanky build), Frenzy wins.
* Frenzy charges have other uses, like adding evasion rating through a node in the ranger section, or fueling Flicker Strike or Discharge.
* Calculations were done against an armour of zero. Against armoured targets, dual strike's attack speed advantage doesn't increase DPS as much as simply having more physical damage to break the armour. Resists don't work this way and, at high levels, Dual Strike clearly wins against Frenzy when it comes to dealing elemental damage from gear mods and auras.
I agree with [your QQ,] problem is, everything else I played makes me come back here. PoE fucks me better.
—Worldbreaker
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Last edited by ScrotieMcB on January 27, 2013 9:14 PM
Some good news: there are several AOE skills in the pipeline that will use Daggers and Claws, so dual wielders have something to look forward to!
Path of Exile Executive Producer and Designer.
Any dual wield wand skills in the works? :)
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Some good news: there are several AOE skills in the pipeline that will use Daggers and Claws, so dual wielders have something to look forward to!


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Some good news: there are several AOE skills in the pipeline that will use Daggers and Claws, so dual wielders have something to look forward to!

I think I might wet myself if there's something similar to Zeal/Fury from D2.
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ScrotieMcB wrote:

That's assume two of the same weapon. With Dual Strike, this isn't optimal. For example, using a Spiraled Foil (1.7aps) mainhand and a Legion Sword (1.2aps) off-hand has a working aps of 1.407, but with Dual Strike that aps jumps to 3.4, which is 141% more, not just 100% more. Further optimizing attack-speed mainhand while optimizing damage-per-hit offhand can make this effect even more pronounced.


Can someone detail the math for this effective difference between main hand and off-hand attack speed with dual strike?

Edit: Or even if it matters which hand is faster for dual strike calculations.
Last edited by Theli7 on January 27, 2013 11:29 PM
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ScrotieMcB wrote:
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Zakaluka wrote:
18% atk speed per charge / 12% IPD per charge. 7 charges.
126% IAS / 84% IPD - giveup the double hit effect of DS.
In comparison to: double hit effect with a 47% IPD and 60% incr critical strike chance. Hum.

There is an important difference between increased and more. Increased effects are additive, more effects are multiplicative.


First, an error in my original statement. 23% IAS per charge, total to 161%. The default 5% per charge still applies on top of the skillgem bonus.

I suggest you actually try making a 7 frenzy build, which is the context I quoted. Now actually equip a level 17 qual frenzy and a level 17 qual dual strike. The frenzy will do about 10-20% more damage, unless you make poor choices on supports / passives for frenzy.

I can math it out to support my claim, but that wouldn't really serve a whole lot of purpose. Do it in game, much more meaningful. Wouldn't expect most people to read the math, anyway.

math

Here it is anyway.

92ZWPIE
uxBH24k (edit 2nd image based on 30% IAS ceiling from passives/gear plus the 35% from charges, more reasonable for most people)

Second image is the ratio (Frenzy DPS) / (Dual strike DPS) at 5% crit, across the whole range of %IAS and %IPD. Assuming both skills use the same physical weapon. The elemental weapon case is much harder to analyze; and it won't be considerably different, just a slight bit less in frenzy's favor.

Damn my OCD, no time for this right now.


The frenzy usually does more dps, if you've built around it, unless you happen to have a set completely maxed on elemental mods, or very high IAS stats aside from that contributed by frenzy charges (which, you wouldn't, in a frenzy build). I've seen this, personally. Yes, you're right about DS behaving as 100% more attack speed. The difference is that frenzy has both a high attack speed bonus and a high physi dmg bonus; those two figures multiply. If built properly for frenzy, nothing in the game beats it for single target DPS.

This is as it should be. The big problem with dual wield is how limited our skill selection is, and how limited overall build options are for it. Not that only two skills work with dual wield.


Anyway, counter point time. You can have the last word.
Last edited by Zakaluka on January 27, 2013 11:33 PM

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