My plans for OB - The Clonuelist.

Is DW Block not a viable build end game? I know Moosifer has been searching for an identity that is all duelist and not just doing what other classes do just a little worse at it and when looking at the tree that is the only answer I have come up with for an identity. It's not very sexy is it. Also in my opinion part of the reason duelist seems weak is its start all you can choose are offensive abilities and over all they don't feel all that strong. There are no other classes racing to come into the duelist starting area to pick them up.
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Moosifer wrote:
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Desbris wrote:
Yeah see I haven't added anything to the thread you made because you and others have pretty much brought up all the concerns with the class. But it will be very interesting to see if duelist do get any changes, the problem becomes if you make too many changes then the shift is too dramatic, so it is definitely a fine line.


I want dramatic changes with the same theory that lead them to originally create the class in the first place. I talked about it in my recent thread in the suggestions forum, I always imagine duelist being a video game version of the dude who gives sword lessons in Game of Thrones. A bad ass sword master who doesn't plan on being hit often and can out maneuver you.

The armor and eva makes sense in theory with how the class should be. If that sword master would going into battle he'd wear light armor to keep his mobility but he wouldn't be a fucking psycho and go without any armor at all. He won't be able to take a haymaker hit from someone mara's size without feeling it (hence why armor should be lower than heavy armor) but he does a good job of avoiding those hits in the first place.

That's why I'm suggesting shit like 1h w/o another sword or shield as that's how I imagine these guys in duels. Just working around people, acting more like a fencer rather than a brute.

Most people suggest things that make him into more of a brute which is why the class is so fucked right now. They keep mara images in their head because mara works, duelist doesn't so let's just change them so they fit mara.

With that second paragraph I just thought of a great idea but it wouldn't be too easy and people would be pissed about it. Make heavy armor give negative eva (just like MS, it should prevent you from evading hits as well, also shields should lower your evasion as well. A shield with evasion is such a confusing idea to me) but give hybrid armors higher base eva, allowing duelist users a better chance to avoid. Maybe even lower the base armor.

We were talking in the alpha global about how mara and duelist are kinda fucked up. Mara has the best of everything but duelist has nothing good, just shit that's good with other stuff. I forget who lead me to this point but it seems duelist is the DR class (or intended to be at least) while mara is the life class. It should be the opposite. Mara's charge into battles and just eat the damage no problem, which doesn't cause a stun, doesn't stop them, the arrows just hit their armor and they keep charging forward. Duelist should be the life class as when they are hit (as they are trying not to be) they are knocked back, stunned or slowed down making them vulnerable. You have to bust through mara's defenses to hurt him, while most hits will hurt a duelist. But with how life is set up, life essentially is melee's armor.

Move all this armor shit to mara, take away some of their life, make armor more effective so it's good to stack but you don't need 50k to see a real difference then make armor lower your chance to evade attacks. Take away the armor shit from duelist, give them big life nodes, put more eva also change the scale of eva so hybrid classes can easily get 50% while pure eva users can get 65-75% easier

I think these changes make a clear dividing line between mara and duelist but also makes both a great class to play. Massively different but equally powerful. The only problem is this is a drastic change involving huge tree changes and many gear changes. The other problem is if something drastic isn't done soon duelist will just keep spilling more toward mara because inexperienced users will just advocate for more mara shit to be put on duelist tree while people like me will be lost in the crowd come OB.

Now someone go send this post to Chris or Qarl as I've already bothered them too much lately and I know they don't want to deal with this at this moment trying to get OB good to go.


I like the concept of just a single weapon, and something along the lines of getting a nice defense bonus/value maybe a large evasion boost (one that is noticeable) or some kind of unique parry/counter move which would add a lot of variation and dynamics to it, especially if you think of a 1H duelist as like a kind of swashbuckler style character, as they sometimes come across in the game.

The whole armour and evasion problem is just that, it has come to a situation where the two are both slightly problematic but more importantly how defense in general completely is reliant on high health. Where as mentioned health becomes the sole form of defense and by far most efficient way to build a character. As right now armour is pretty much useless once you hit a certain value and especially because granite flasks do such a good job, they almost make armour and evasion useless.

Duelist clearly has great access to armour and evasion early game but these become less efficient late game, and almost pointless to an extent. You may be right in stating changes would need to be drastic but in doing so this is such a big change that it would have a huge effect in general, and one thing will always affect something else. So as I stated I believe it is a delicate matter but you definitely make a good point on several things and it is also true that everything a Duelist can do, another class can do slightly better, so it ends up being that people pick a duelist because of how they look and maybe because of their good early game access to attack speed too.

I think something could be improved with dual wielding block chance, they already have the highest amount of access to dual wield block chance than any other character but block chance is still an unreliable form of defense, especially late game, and it's still quite a hefty point investment to make it remotely desirable.

I am currently playing a Duelist DW on HC at level 67 and when comparing it to Ceto's build it becomes very apparent how much more efficient a DW Ranger is than a DW Duelist, and this does relate back to what you was saying about how other classes can do everything a Duelist can but better, the only exception being with dual wielding block chance but the values are not that high for the points invested and so it becomes a not very efficient way of building the character. I know you weren't talking so much about DW but I am saying even though DW works it still is done better by other classes most notably Ranger.

There are definitely things that can be improved upon but it really is something that must be taken with extreme care.

Last edited by Desbris on Dec 22, 2012, 2:48:11 PM
Not that i mind myself much, But you should discuss all of this in Moosifer's thread for it rather than here. Keeps the discussion clean and focused in both threads ;)
Playing a dual-wielding swordsman of some kind.
In game name is Kaosu and/or ChaosBlade.
ransagy, I'm trying to get whatever voices I can find to advocate with me. You have that pretty purple under your name so I feel you have a voice people will listen to.

I've never done a DW because it feels like a GS mara. I'm trying to create cookie cutter builds, not just run them. Currently I'm working on making a cookie cutter 2h sword build. As of right now it's very fun, uses some of the ideas of my sweep build but I've mixed it up. When I finish it out I'll share what I've done (hopefully it works). Kinda sucks because I won't be able to share my gear as I'm building it in alpha.
Finished 17th in Rampage - Peaked at 11th
Finished 18th in Torment/Bloodline 1mo Race - peaked at 9th
Null's Inclination Build 2.1.0 - https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1559063
Summon Skeleton 1.3 - https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1219856
Well, I'll pitch in where i can. There are enough problems with the duelist for all of us to sing about.
Playing a dual-wielding swordsman of some kind.
In game name is Kaosu and/or ChaosBlade.
I'm trying to get some soloist rather than fighting through the choir.
Finished 17th in Rampage - Peaked at 11th
Finished 18th in Torment/Bloodline 1mo Race - peaked at 9th
Null's Inclination Build 2.1.0 - https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1559063
Summon Skeleton 1.3 - https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1219856
can you link your gear for this build?
Since it does not exist yet, there is nothing to link. Look at Ceto's build for an estimate of near perfect gear, TheAxiom's 'Lawsuit Duelist' build or Moosifer's 2h build (minus the weapon).
Playing a dual-wielding swordsman of some kind.
In game name is Kaosu and/or ChaosBlade.
What do you think about grabbing the 2x Savant, one near the IR life nodes and other near the axe nodes near BM? They seem really useful for maintaining enough intelligence for Wrath. And what about Lava Slash? Wouldn't it be extremely useful because of added fire damage support gems on Cleave, Dual Strike, and Flicker?
I might need those int points as well as agility, for gear and gems. Wrath seems more worth it than Hatred.
As for Lava Lash and Ice Bite, that depends on mechanics. I'm not sure if it requires fire/ice on the weapons, or converts from the weapon's phys damage and whether the support gems synergizes with it or not
Playing a dual-wielding swordsman of some kind.
In game name is Kaosu and/or ChaosBlade.

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