What is hardcore?

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CiceroSUN wrote:

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Charan wrote:

Is PoE a hardcore game in and of itself? I can't easily answer that. I've seen newbies to ARPGs pick it up effortlessly and I've seen people I knew from D1 struggle with it.

Doesnt that imply that you feel "being a difficult" game is necessary for being a hardcore game?

Uhm.


No. :)

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flab wrote:

Yeah, and what's so bad about making mistakes?

I didn't research builds or read mechanics threads when I started playing the game, I had fun and learned things. The game is more intuitive and the skill tree probably more forgiving than it's ever been, while still having room for improvement, I'm sure this trend will continue.

You can easily enough change your spec and style, just not in the entirely generic way of morphing from one class to another, which is imo a good thing.

Changing class would indeed not make sence, but I guess it is always up to personal opinion about what is easy and what isnt. Having only played two chars to level 32 and 34, I definitely dont feel that it is easy to change. You get some respec points from quests and are able to find orbs that allow one point of respeccing too, but I have not found any yet.

This is how the developers intended it, I just dont agree with it. Once you realise that your spec is not for you, you ahve to make a huge time investment in order to be able to change it, and you have to invest that time playing a character with a spec you do not like. Or create a new character all together, meaning replaying old content again.

Both leave the feeling of the game punishing you, which is part of the reason for this thread.

Hardcore games are to casual games like chess is to checkers.

Both games have a low barrier to entry:
It does not take very long to understand the parameters of each game.
The objective of both games is the same: defeat your opponent.
However, chess has greater complexity because it has more than one type of play piece.

They both take place on the same playing field, but one has immensely more depth because there are more variables (pieces/moves/strategies) in chess.

Learning how to combine the various pieces and moves in combination of an analysis of what the opponent is predicted to do takes years of study, practice and play.

A day to learn, a lifetime to master.
That is hardcore to me.

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Garr0t wrote:

Hardcore games are to casual games like chess is to checkers.

Both games have a low barrier to entry:
It does not take very long to understand the parameters of each game.
The objective of both games is the same: defeat your opponent.
However, chess has greater complexity because it has more than one type of play piece.

They both take place on the same playing field, but one has immensely more depth because there are more variables (pieces/moves/strategies) in chess.

Learning how to combine the various pieces and moves in combination of an analysis of what the opponent is predicted to do takes years of study, practice and play.

A day to learn, a lifetime to master.
That is hardcore to me.

I like. I mean, cliche and all, but true.

You know what game punished you? Impossible friggin Mission on the c64. That game makes POE look like a magic carpet ride, in first class.

Unforgettable game, too.

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CiceroSUN wrote:

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devmoon wrote:

- requires a lot of research
Create something that works good will make you proud and will require some hard work. Without doing any effort you dont feel rewarded.

Following the point above, the game requires a very high amount of research done in order to not make "mistakes". Skill descriptions will never be concise enough to prevent mistakes, meaning that players HAVE to research builds on forums etc before starting, or risk making mistakes with their character.

I somewhat disagree with that point. Yes, PoE does require some research, but it doesn't take much to get up to speed with the game. After reading the newbies FAQ, mechanics thread and watching one or two build of the week videos (imo, BOTW videos are mandatory), you can pretty much go and experiment with builds yourself, even in HC league. I think the passive tree and skill gem descriptions are intuitive enough that even if you don't know the math behind how certain things work, you can distinguish the difference between two skills or passive tree paths, and evaluate their usefulness to you. (You just have read carefully)

However, that is not to say that players are not rewarded for doing extra research. Players who know how to optimize every aspect of their character definitely do better. However, compared to RTS's and MOBA's, the amount of mandatory research required for PoE is really not that much.

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Regarding the main point of this thread, I think for me, hardcore games are defined by the "losing is fun" philosophy (as coined by Dwarf Fortress wiki). This philosophy has two part to it:

1) There must be a real chance of losing everything. Unlike in casual games, dying/losing in a hardcore game is both likely (or even inevitable), and impactful. You cannot simply go back to the start of the level or to the last save-point, and continue on as if nothing happened.

2) Paradoxically, losing in these games still give you a kind of perverse pleasure, where you feel like you went down fighting, and died an honourable death. It is this feeling that prevents frustration and encourages the player to try again, and to do better the next time round.

Games that I consider hardcore:
PoE (HC league)
Dwarf Fortress
Prison Architect
FTL, Dungeons of Dredmore, and pretty much all Rogue-likes
Paradox grand strategy games (if you don't save-scum)

"Competitive" games:
Some people consider these HC, but I think they are their own category, the reason being that when you lose, you only lose a match, not hours, days, or weeks of accumulated progress.
RTS's (StarCraft, etc)
MOBA's (DoTA, LoL, HoN, etc.)

edit: fixed quote box, better formatting
edit 2: added more examples

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flab wrote:

Yeah I can't argue with it being harder to significantly change your build earlier on. This is somewhat countered by not being that punishing earlier on and on average requiring less of a respec. Later on you'll have (or should have) enough respec points and regret orbs to play around more, you also get to use your shared stash and trade for it.

I just don't see failing or making mistakes as part of the issue, particularly for a new player. You also have access to multiple characters, shared stash, information from other players and threads.

You can't expect to master such a complex aspect of the game right from the get go, generally speaking.

Making poor decisions on the skill tree is punished by poor results, just like making weak gear and setup choices, or making poor tactical decisions or having poor reactions in combat situations punishes you.

Yup, and I think the mark of a hardcore player is the willingness to make mistakes, lose now and again, and not rage-quit. "Losing is fun!"

Haha yes I agree, every hardcore gamer might just be a good loser (sportsmanship).

I play hardcore for example and always participate in new fresh leagues because I want to challenge myself again, again and again...

For me, one of the best games that defined 'hardcore' for me was F-Zero GX for the Gamecube. Seems like an unusual choice, but hear me out on this one. F-Zero GX was a more arcade style racer unlike say Forza or GT, but it still had plenty of goodies to offer as well as a very, very, very healthy dose of challenge. The learning curve was a little steeper than perhaps some were accustomed to, but the game also had things like a Practice Mode where you could race around a track as much as you wanted by yourself to get a feel for it. That's the good thing...the game gave you tools to get better, so it warranted the harder difficulty it presented. Not only that, but it offered plenty of bang for the buck like the Garage Mode where you could unlock parts and build custom racers for yourself to use in the Grnad Prix or even Time Trial Modes.

The controls weren't too hard to figure out either, and the only real tough part at the beginning was learning how to drift and curve around turns or sharper parts of the tracks. However, once you got those down you could race away on the lower difficulties to get better, and that's where the game shined. Plus, the controls were very responsive and smooth, which is always a plus especially since that's not always present in games. I'll just list some bullet points now:


1. Controls that weren't too hard to pick up on, but to those who took the time to learn them they offered a lot of flexibility and better responses for that.

2. Lots of different cars that you could gain access to and each of them had a different way of handling, boosting, etc, etc.

3. Track memorization was rewarded handsomely as well as you being able to challenge higher difficulties and new courses to unlock.

4. Plenty of tools for practice and personal improvement, and then the Grand Prix or the Story Mode to challenge yourself with.

5. Gameplay that wasn't overly cheap or unfair. There were a few parts that seemed that way (Story Mode being one of the bigger culprits there), but most of the time when you lost or screwed up, it was your fault. You saw you had room to improve, but you had ways to do so as mentioned before.


There are a few other points, but I think most of you get the picture...F-Zero GX is one of those games that really nailed 'Easy to play, difficult to master' aspects that I think a good 'hardcore' game is. Once you get over the initial learning curve, it's up to you to master the controls, the courses, set new time records for yourself, etc, etc. IMHO, Path of Exile has a very, very good start to that, though there are a few bumps that still need ironed out (still a few 'cheap' parts in the beginning of the game like the Flicker Strike enemies in the Ship Graveyard that can rip you apart before you get a chance to respond), but it's getting there.

An interesting topic. I'd say many of the major points have been hit already. A few comments:

I strongly disagree about having an easier way to respec. Choice and consequence is at the very heart of a hardcore game. There are many possible paths and you can only choose a few of them. It comes down to strategy, planning, cost/benefit, and risk/reward. Being able to respec willy-nilly undermines the strategy aspect and severely limits replayability- very little incentive to start new characters.

* Limited ability to respec is enough for build tweaking (a good thing) and correcting accidental clicks

* With so much choice mistakes are to be expected. Major build mistakes usually only happen while you're learning the game mechanics and restarting a character doesn't take that long. You can get to level 30 in a few hours and to endgame in less than a week (a few days even).

* In fact creating new characters and replaying the content over and over is a natural consequence of the vast number of build choices. It's fun to start again with a different build and is another staple component of a hardcore game: replayability. I would classify a game where you only have incentive to go through the content once as casual.