Why desync is fixable:

"

HaleBopp wrote:

"

SL4Y3R wrote:

I hate playing on high pings. Would rather desync on occasion.

did anyone play ever counter strike(beta 5.2 vs beta 7.6 time 1999-2000) - old - new netcode?

Action shooter require shorter reaction time from the game ggg , look into them if the present netcode desync this much.

lost 4 RL mates to HC deaths to desync. im the only one left trying to aquire new but after 2 days --- its too much desync .

pls get a workaround

Death is not the only problem. Try playing with Traps or objectile based spells and you will realize that it is fucking annoying that you can't hit 50% of the time, because the enemy isn't where you think (and see) he is.

Why there are no sync issues in a 25 players WoW raid with tons of mobs (and TS3 or Skype running loaded) ?

I mean, the technical solutions already exist and not only for WoW, GGG just don't seem to see this bad lag management as a major issue. I have a good ISP and my pc rocks with all online games but not with PoE... you're shooting a bullet in your feet guys if you don't fix this before launch date.

(well, atm D3 still sucks (desyncs too) but people already paid the game so...)

"

bpolleri wrote:

Why there are no sync issues in a 25 players WoW raid with tons of mobs (and TS3 or Skype running loaded) ?

How to keep synced a battle with 1500 archers on a 28.8k modem and a Pentium@90MHz?

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/3094/1500_archers_on_a_288_network_.php

For some reason which i still have to understand at 100%, GGG uses a completely different method.

Just tried again 2 mins ago, I give up...

WYSInotWYG... upseting to waste time and blood (or mana) hiting mobs that are already dead, just because it takes almost 1s to get server confirmation so the client UI can launch death animation, LOL.

"

HellGauss wrote:

"

bpolleri wrote:

Why there are no sync issues in a 25 players WoW raid with tons of mobs (and TS3 or Skype running loaded) ?

How to keep synced a battle with 1500 archers on a 28.8k modem and a Pentium@90MHz?

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/3094/1500_archers_on_a_288_network_.php

For some reason which i still have to understand at 100%, GGG uses a completely different method.

LOL

(btw you don't have much more lag with an old 28k modem than with cable, delays are almost the same, light speed, interfaces delays, modulation, demodulation, amplifiers... etc)

I will give this thread a last hurrah.

Reminding GGG and the players that there are still other options and different possibilitys and showing of the problems they got.
Every of this threads goes more or less the same way:
- some people ignoring the law of physics just crying about it should be fixed
- some people (fanboys) telling the creator to fuck of and go play something different (what most of the people do after it because they have no other choice)
- some people saying that the servers don't cut it (they probably don't, but even with perfect servers the problem would still be there because of the system they use)
- and actually a small amount that discusses the issue and tries to find options around the problem (and get ignored by GGG)

Not surprisingly the first group gets the most GGG answers, because it is way easier to explain somebody that ignores common sense why something isn't that easy than to discuss with people and maybe accept that you were wrong. That is the sad on it's own.

On the other hand nobody can deny that this game lost a lot. Many players came played the game and left before long (talking about myself i would say i never played more than 1-2 month before desync drives me out). At some point the game was huge (and probably a bit overhyped, because it isn't a game for everyone), people ignored the huge issues like desync because you could always tell yourself it is a beta, but after some time people realized that things like desync won't be fixed ever and they left. Don't get me wrong, there are still a lot of people in the community for sure, but the game without desync would be huge by now even rivaling AAA games like D3. I think many fanboys underestimate how many poeple left the game because of desync, because only a very very small part gives feedbacks in forums before they take their leave and they do it because they cared about the game and not because they wanted to hate.

Fact is that as long as a huge problem like desync is there the game will stagnate more and more and will fall together before long. It is sad to see a game fall like this because the developer can't make use of the feedback they get or even create tools to get important feedback.
For example: Why is there no Question Mail after someone doesn't log in for 1 month asking for the reason to use it as feedback? Why is there no poll about what the most pressing problem in the game is? They showed us the options they got about the game in their manifesto, but why are they not asking what the community things would be best?

So many potential chances are left on the road for the game and a huge amount goes back to bad planing abilitys and community works with problems. (the community work may be fine, but not at the most pressing points)

Why is there no reasoning behind decissions? PoE got a freaking fanatic community, but they can't help if you don't give them the chance! You can't help someone without at least understanding a bit of the reasoning there is for their decissions.

I stopped playing the game around 2 month ago after around 2 weeks of playing (not for the first time, but probably for the last time, because PoE by now is deleted from my PC and their is no intention to get it back ever), but i decided to write this last post and point out what (in my opinion, obviously) the problems are and maybe to give GGG a last wake up call for their game before it is to late.

So my last tip for GGG:
Use the community, there is no bigger power than the community of a game and this power isn't limited to money. Look at things like Star Citizen and realize that similar approaches work with your game as well (they made a poll about what people want be able to do and the community surprised them heavy). Don't be so fucking stubborn and think outside the box!

Criticism is something great and the way to learn things. So GGG guys i hope you can learn.

Bye

"

DE3me wrote:

Every of this threads goes more or less the same way:
- some people ignoring the law of physics just crying about it should be fixed
- some people (fanboys) telling the creator to fuck of and go play something different (what most of the people do after it because they have no other choice)
- some people saying that the servers don't cut it (they probably don't, but even with perfect servers the problem would still be there because of the system they use)
- and actually a small amount that discusses the issue and tries to find options around the problem (and get ignored by GGG)

That's exactly what's happening. I recently made another desync thread.
I'm aware of the fact that people don't like to see them pop up once a week or whatever, but on the other hand the desync problem persisted for 2 years now and it seems it will never be fixed. That's just sad.

"

Wait until data arrives back from the server before doing anything. This is a very common strategy in RTS and MOBA games. If you click to move, the unit will only start moving once the server says so, which is 50-250ms later. If you are close to the server, you'll quickly get used to the lag and everything feels pretty good. If you're far away (New Zealand, for example), it feels like you're playing drunk. Every time you issue an order, nothing happens for quarter of a second. This does not work for Action RPGs.

This argument is just nonsense.

How about using this kind of treatment for movement only and giving it a higher priority in the connection cycle?
I bet most people have a latency of 20ms-40ms.
You can't wait 80ms-100ms until your character moves?
Do you guys even realize how short that is?
100ms is 1/10 of a second.

Everybody who says this isn't a suitable option for this game just doesn't know what he's talking about.

Sure keep repeating what the devs say, I don't care.
But the cold fact is: There is desync. All the time. And it has to be fixed somehow.
Or the game will lose a lot of players sooner or later.
Well, it already lost a lot of players because of that.

"

DE3me wrote:

"

SL4Y3R wrote:

I hate playing on high pings. Would rather desync on occasion.

Who said that you have to play on high ping? Do you really think that games like DotA or LoL or HoN (or other similar games) don't need instant feedback? If you think so you never played some of this games. It is possible to play a game with nearly no delay and it would be even better the more server they get out.

"

dudiobugtron wrote:

@OP: So instead of being sometimes desynced, you want to be constantly desynced? How can you avoid anything if you're always half a second behind what's actually happening?

You ever played one of the AoS/MOBA games?
With good servers you won't even realize that you are behind. It can be hard in areas with bad connections, but that can build up later. I think the game would get more players (and more money with it) so it would be possible to build up additional servers.

To you guys, try to play some games of these games and tell me that they are not responsive.

Btw, a second behind means you have a ping of over 1000ms. Just saying.

No delay is better than nearly no delay.

Also, most of these games have .. eight people playing per server. And none of them have 10-12 APS.

Try playing an mmo with click-to-move. I would not want this for POE.

And although I am not sure how GGG's servers are set up, they really impress me by letting the different regions play together. Doing the above would have to remove this "feature" as having 300ms for playing with someone from another continent would be much more apparent and detrimental to the gameplay.

"

DE3me wrote:

So my last tip for GGG:
Use the community, there is no bigger power than the community of a game and this power isn't limited to money. Look at things like Star Citizen and realize that similar approaches work with your game as well (they made a poll about what people want be able to do and the community surprised them heavy). Don't be so fucking stubborn and think outside the box!

Criticism is something great and the way to learn things. So GGG guys i hope you can learn.

Bye

There is more than one side to the community. Saying they should listen to the community, and then automatically assuming that means your point of view doesn't work.

Votes are also bad, because how big a margin would be needed to implement something? 50%? 51%? 75%?

Either way it would upset the other half. I am pretty sure they had a long look at this during development, to make sure it worked. And it does. It did for D2 as well. Although the same arguments arose, it was and is the most successful ARPG of all time. At least in the western part of the world.

I would much rather reset my sync to the server at will, than have a delay (no matter how small) at every click.

I am not sure what the timer is on the sync command, but I have not experienced desync since I got to know about it.

"

jawsofhana wrote:

No delay is better than nearly no delay.

Also, most of these games have .. eight people playing per server. And none of them have 10-12 APS.

Try playing an mmo with click-to-move. I would not want this for POE.

And although I am not sure how GGG's servers are set up, they really impress me by letting the different regions play together. Doing the above would have to remove this "feature" as having 300ms for playing with someone from another continent would be much more apparent and detrimental to the gameplay.

You clearly never played an AoS/MOBA game, so please stop trying to argument with things you have no clue about. No delay is not a possibility (unless you let the client control the game and we all agree that this is nothing we want).
You count on the positive effects of the system (guessing) they use, but you forget the downside of the whole thing, desync. You maybe a lucky someone that rarely experience desync, but from what we see from people leaving the game (hell, the forum is so quite i never expected this thread on the first page after my post at the start this would be spammed away in no time) i believe that you are a rare case, IF you rarely experience desync.

The tradeoff is quite simple
Guessing:
positive
- you can play with people across the globe without much problems
- the game is playable from areas with bad connections and without much server presence everywhere
- a simulated fast response

negative
- desync and with it a whole ton of problems
(skills that are basically impossible to use, builds that can't work because of that, frustrating gameplay for positioning characters, death without your fault or anything you can do etc.)

Wait until the data arrives back (aka AoS/MOBA approach)
positive
- calculable delay for most internet connections if not all
- expandable server structure (you can start of small and expand until everyone gets a similar delay [server side])
- true hardcore gaming is possible through calculable gameplay (no randomness from the server)

negative
- you can't play with people from the other side of the globe or download stuff while playing
- delay on everything you do (that is something you adept to pretty easy [everything from ~5ms to ~150ms], unless the delay is really high)
- worse gameplay for people with unstable connections (rare, because people with unstable connections don't play online games anyway)

So, in general you trade a little bit of delay to make the game calculabe for the player. Now you could make a poll and ask what people prefer.

50ms delay on everything vs random, uncontrollable desync

"

jawsofhana wrote:

There is more than one side to the community. Saying they should listen to the community, and then automatically assuming that means your point of view doesn't work.

Votes are also bad, because how big a margin would be needed to implement something? 50%? 51%? 75%?

Votes are never bad. The problem GGG would have, is that you have to bring something better than.

"

This does not work for Action RPGs.

Without something like a vote you can never know what the community wants and all you can do is guessing (oh, right that is already what they do) and you can go the wrong way without even knowing.