Melee vs Ranged Balance: Damage Effectiveness

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UnderOmerta wrote:

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mazul wrote:

A hell lot of mobs have 0% cold resistance. Any mob that doesn't say "resist/vulnerable to cold or elemental resist/vulnerable", has 0% cold resist.

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Some of those monsters that do not say "resists..." will still not have the "vulnerable to..." text when you curse them with ele weakness, indicating that their resists were higher than 0.

(...)

Give me the name and location of at least one such monster.

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mazul wrote:

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UnderOmerta wrote:

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mazul wrote:

A hell lot of mobs have 0% cold resistance. Any mob that doesn't say "resist/vulnerable to cold or elemental resist/vulnerable", has 0% cold resist.

(...)
Some of those monsters that do not say "resists..." will still not have the "vulnerable to..." text when you curse them with ele weakness, indicating that their resists were higher than 0.

(...)

Give me the name and location of at least one such monster.

I see them all the time in maps. You can curse a non-descript monster with ele weakness (mine is 20/20 so it takes off 59% all elemental resists) and they don't necessarily say "vulnerable to."

Please provide a source that any monster that doesn't say "resists ..." has 0% resists, as Sodomee requested, please.

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Sodomee wrote:

Where is your source for this?

Rigorous testing with purity, conversion trap and elemental weakness as well as analysis of the client itself.

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To add to what I've said, the highest dps RF freeze pulser I have seen was 11k with 5 projectiles and 3 frenzy charges.

That's 55k dps due to shotgun effect prior to projectile distance negative bonus. Not to mention the very high chance to freeze target.

At http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/314832/page/1 we have a LMP pre-nerf RF FP at 59k shotgun dps.

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I am now at almost 44k dps phys cleave with hatred aura. I'm fairly certain that no FP build can top my kill speed in a 75+ map.

AoE range on that 44k dps cleave? It is also of interest to compare your effective physical hp and magical hp compared to the one of the RF Shavronne FP, because to match the survivability one of you needs to reduce your dps by switching nodes.

Keep also in mind that RF Shavronne FP can and should use Vaal Pact which adds a hell lot to their survivability.

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UnderOmerta wrote:

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mazul wrote:

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UnderOmerta wrote:

(...)
(...)
Some of those monsters that do not say "resists..." will still not have the "vulnerable to..." text when you curse them with ele weakness, indicating that their resists were higher than 0.

(...)

Give me the name and location of at least one such monster.

I see them all the time in maps. You can curse a non-descript monster with ele weakness (mine is 20/20 so it takes off 59% all elemental resists) and they don't necessarily say "vulnerable to."

Please provide a source that any monster that doesn't say "resists ..." has 0% resists, as Sodomee requested, please.

You just need to provide one monster name and one instance. Evidently since they are so common in maps, you can find them outside of maps too, right?

They're common enough that you don't notice them specifically. Just like how I don't notice/can't recall the latin words on the back of a one dollar bill, but it doesn't mean I haven't seen them before.

Now, please provide a source where any monster that doesn't say "resists x" has 0% resistance to x.

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UnderOmerta wrote:

They're common enough that you don't notice them specifically. Just like how I don't notice/can't recall the latin words on the back of a one dollar bill, but it doesn't mean I haven't seen them before.

Now, please provide a source where any monster that doesn't say "resists x" has 0% resistance to x.

Are you sure you simply just didn't forget to readjust your pointer from the target after casting the curse to make the new stats appear?

Because if you got a monster selected and you cast ele weakness, the resistance information of the monster won't change unless you deselect it and reselect it. (You can test this at rhoas yourself)

As for proof that at least one monster has exactly 0% cold resist:


Get lv22 Purity (Alpha's Howl for +2 levels) to be able to give a converted target 29% all resist. Also get lv1 elemental weakness so you can reduce the "resists" of the target by 30%.

Go to merciless docks and find the enemy "Battle Corsair" which is a melee skeleton that says "resistant to fire" (unless newer patched changed it, may have got the exact name wrong :D).

Given that you would consider Corsair's cold resist to be unknown, we can call that number X.

Now, first curse the target with ele weakness which means that its cold resist will be X-30.

This will show (remember to remove focus and readd focus on target so that the message won't get bugged) that the Corsair is now vulnerable to cold.

Now, quickly before the curse ends, convert it to your side using Conversion Trap. This will still show "vulnerable to cold". Then activate your purity aura and it will still show "vulnerable to cold". (Of course the curse shouldn't end before you check the stats after casting purity)

This means following:

X >= 0,
X - 30 < 0 and
X - 30 + 29 < 0 <=> X-1 < 0 <=> X < 1

For both X >= 0 and X < 1 to hold, X must be equal to 0.
Q.E.D.

As other has mentioned before. The biggest problem with melee is survivability of melee vs. ranged.

Two simple but very bandaidy fixes

1) Add some "3% damage reduction while wearing 1H melee weapons" and "3% damage reduction while wearing 2H melee weapons" nodes around the southern half of the passive tree.
2) Add some melee-specific nodes prior to EA so that casters, rangers and wanders will pay more for EA than melee users.


A more elegant solution could be to give the different classes different traits.
I know GGG intend classes to be very similar (identical except starting int/str/dex and location). But I think it could be beneficial to add some more diversity.

E.g. a marauder could get
10% more HP
10% DR
15% less mana

a witch:
10% more spell dmg
40% increased mana regen
20% less armor

This will make it easier to balance melee vs. ranged as you now has inherent differences between the ranged-heavy classes and the melee-heavy classes. Today it is very hard to balance things because you basically balance all characters within a very broad archetype at once (or create bandaids like must-have keystones or BIS uniques).

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sevenOfDiamonds wrote:

As other has mentioned before. The biggest problem with melee is survivability of melee vs. ranged.

Two simple but very bandaidy fixes

1) Add some "3% damage reduction while wearing 1H melee weapons" and "3% damage reduction while wearing 2H melee weapons" nodes around the southern half of the passive tree.
2) Add some melee-specific nodes prior to EA so that casters, rangers and wanders will pay more for EA than melee users.


A more elegant solution could be to give the different classes different traits.
I know GGG intend classes to be very similar (identical except starting int/str/dex and location). But I think it could be beneficial to add some more diversity.

E.g. a marauder could get
10% more HP
10% DR
15% less mana

a witch:
10% more spell dmg
40% increased mana regen
20% less armor

This will make it easier to balance melee vs. ranged as you now has inherent differences between the ranged-heavy classes and the melee-heavy classes. Today it is very hard to balance things because you basically balance all characters within a very broad archetype at once (or create bandaids like must-have keystones or BIS uniques).

Except marauder is the ideal class for any life build including bow users.

Endurance charges should be easier to manage:

There could be trait for activation of endurance charge - for example - every second attack grant the charge
Warlords mark could be improved to grant few charges per attack (not per kill)
Longer duration because melee needs to run to the next pack of mobs
End. cry looks fine now, because it is used by ranged too