Shadow class, survivability issues.

Ok here is my problem. After playing a few different builds on the shadow just to test how it feels i came to a odd conclusion.

The only really viable shadow build in endgame would be CI, either that or ignoring your starting position in the skill tree and going for nodes that are closer to other classes. Sure you are not meant to stay boxed in at your starting point, but when there is a very low ammount of +hp, +hp% and +str nodes in the vicinity of the shadow, and evasion in itself is very lackluster, especially in hardcore lategame, where reliance on evasion is just hoping you will get lucky and the mobs will miss. And that coupled with Iron Reflexes, wich provides you with amazing damage reduction if you stacked a bit of evasion, actually provides better and most importantly more consistent damage reduction.

Now with CI beeing pretty much your only option you definetly dont want to use meelee attacks as that is just begging to get killed, so you make a caster shadow, so why did you roll a shadow? No reason, the witch can even get the dagger nodes in the same ammount of levels as the shadow can. And there is the problem of stat requirements on the shadows weapons. Dagger and claw are both int+dex weapons, and neither int nor dex provides the reliable defense hp+armor does.

So my question here is, what are the future plans to make a meelee shadow viable, as it looks like they should be capable of a meelee build with all the meelee nodes set around their starting point. But little reliable survivability outside of CI.

Also i would like pointers or ideas for a dagger/claw oriented shadow build.

This is mine shadow dagger Lightning strike build still in progress. It will depend on high block chance and that unique amulet that gives half block chance against spells.

This is the plan for 71 points (when it is done).


For melee using Lightning Strike works as you are not really melee but use melee weapons to kill.

Will probably go Armor/ES gear with a bit of splash into evasion and use Grace aura if mana will support it. Or if Chaos is that big of a problem will switch completely into Evasion/ES gear and use that together with 55% block chance

Chaos damage is the biggest problem with this build but I will be sure to abuse totem+skeletons and ice wall+increased duration :)

But that is kinda part my issue. Melee is not really melee. I was thinking of going lightning strike as well, but that would just make me a caster once again. Sure i would have a dagger equipped, but even then i would probably be better off with some other weapon.

And with ice wall + skeleton totem, i bet i could get to the hardest difficulty using those two and only lvling enough + stat gems to lvl those two skills. (altough skeletons might need some summoning skill support)

The build you are using seems pretty decent, altough i wonder what the DPS would look like, and what the hp/shield/def would be.

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deathspenalty wrote:

But that is kinda part my issue. Melee is not really melee. I was thinking of going lightning strike as well, but that would just make me a caster once again. Sure i would have a dagger equipped, but even then i would probably be better off with some other weapon.

And with ice wall + skeleton totem, i bet i could get to the hardest difficulty using those two and only lvling enough + stat gems to lvl those two skills. (altough skeletons might need some summoning skill support)

The build you are using seems pretty decent, altough i wonder what the DPS would look like, and what the hp/shield/def would be.

You need the dagger for increased chance to crit, also daggers have high base crit and close to shadow are couple of good increased crit chance passives for daggers.

This means a lot of critical hits with lightning strike. In addition to mad damage you also shock and do even more mad damage :D

I agree with totem + skeletons being really strong, but with next patch it might all change. Icewall is strong by itself and will probably get nerfed sooner or later. But since I am playing on Hardcore I plan to abuse anything that I can to not die :)

As for defense, I only need to worry about archers and chaos damage dealers and both can be taken down with careful play and abusing skeletons and icewalls.

Also high level firetrap is a great skill to kill archers while not standing in the line of fire from them.

As for not being melee, I don't really mind. Shadow is a shadowy arcane class, having a more magical melee attack fits right in. For real melee there are marauders, dualists and rangers.

How about shadows get rewarded for successfully evading an attack. Say each evade reduce the current cd of your ES by 0.5 sec (or less)?

I'll probably clean up the rant I made on another thread and stick it here, but it basically agrees with the OP, mostly in consideration with the hodge-podge, misleading starting area the Shadow has to work with.

For now, I am working on two Shadows at a melee capacity: A Blood shadow, who totally disregards the starting area except for the path to Acceleration, and an evasion Shadow, who....also totally disregards the starting area, actually, including not bothering with Acceleration.

I think this is an inherently Skilldrasil-based problem rather than 'class'. Then again, what is a class but its place on the Skilldrasil and the nodes around it?

There is a form of energy-shield melee-leeching coming, by the way. One of the diamond uniques is spearheading it. I fear all it will do is encourage more CI usage, which I find to be...not entirely thematic with the Shadow in my opinion but hey, it works.

Torin: I'm sorry, but related to my rant, I've observed that while dex/int might seem not to include melee, the starting Shadow area certainly encourages melee as a viable path to take.

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Charan wrote:

I think this is an inherently Skilldrasil-based problem rather than 'class'. Then again, what is a class but its place on the Skilldrasil and the nodes around it?

This is exactly true.

What I find really interesting is how unbalanced the skilldrasil can be.

For instance I have been working on a Marauder build that really spends more time in the Dualist skill tree, and even approaches the Ranger skill tree.

I then thought, what if I built this same build as a Dualist?

What I discovered is that from the Dualist starting point I essentially need an additional 10 skill points to make the exact same build. That doesn't make any sense.

This is just one example.

The Dualist, Templar, and Shadow starting positions have to be trimmed down and beefed up. It is easier for the Marauder, Witch, and Ranger to cherry pick from the off-classes while the off-classes have a harder time cherry picking from the base classes.

I assume GGG is working on this and they will make skill tree changes to beef up the off-classes.

The 1st step they need to take is to actually define the hybrids so they don't end up with the smorgasborg of a shadow that we have now. And not just with flavor text (GGG is quite amazing at that) but with actual quantifiable descriptions.

For example
Shadow - a deceptive class that uses movement to his advantage <- this is all nice and flavory, but it doesn't help create a PST section.

Defensive version
Shadow - a build up class that gains bonuses from successful evasions <- now we have something to build with

With that you could have:
// gains movement speed on evasion
// reduces ES cd on evasion
// -0.1sec recharge time on traps per x units traveled
// chance to instantly gain a trap charge on evasion

Offensive version
Shadow - a cunning class that casts additional spells and effects from successful hits

With that you could have:
// deal x <insert element> spell damage every x hits (melee or spell)
// % chance to double cast a spell
// apply <insert status effect> every x hits
// detonate remaining ES for % of it as damage when hit

Nodes like these should replace weapon specific upgrade nodes that don't deal additional effects. Straight up +damage with x weapon simply takes up space when a different weapon is already chosen.

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Charan wrote:

Torin: I'm sorry, but related to my rant, I've observed that while dex/int might seem not to include melee, the starting Shadow area certainly encourages melee as a viable path to take.

But yet this game is full of melee attacks that are not really melee attacks like Ground Slam and Lightning Strike. Even Sweep is nearing that area.

First time I played a staff templar with Ground Slam I was imagining I was using some fire spell and called it Burning Hands :)

I was trying to make a claw centered build that would focus on high def/hp for survivability and life per hit+lifesteal and high aspd. That could work, but i would have been better off going ranger for that build.

If they are to include shield gain per hit on claws, i sure know what my favourite class will be. As i was thinking about items/nodes like that after seeing the major claw trait cluster.