Ways to Remove High-end Items from the Game (To Curb Item Inflation)

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Malice wrote:

In any system, where there is infinite supply, there will be inflation, unless consumption is at the same rate as supply. Since items in PoE will be invincible and never break, consumption will be effectively zero.

Okay, I'm following you're logic here, but I don't see what "breakable" items has to do with anything.

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Malice wrote:

The only consumption will be:
* items that are never picked up (which implies that they were nearly worthless anyway)
* items that are destroyed or thrown away (again, already worthless)
* items on characters that stop playing the game and never return (this will be the only real source of consumption for high value items)

Alright, this seems right, the only real sink will be people quitting.

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Malice wrote:

Since there will be infinite supply in the game, there is only one way to avoid inflation, and that is to have items decay as they are used and eventually break. I imagine this would be very unpopular. The only other way is to limit supply somehow.

This where you lose me. Breaking items has nothing to do with creating a fun item sink method. There is no need to artificially add an un-fun item sink. I don't think that is "the only way" to to curb gear inflation. Limiting supply doesn't really work well either, especially in a game with unlimited play-time potential.

It seems to me that because currency-items are their own sink, that it would be better to find a way to sink gear out of the game by using them.

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Skivverus wrote:

Inflation may have drawbacks, but I think the alternatives are worse.

Really, every alternative is worse?

Maybe inflation exactly what this game needs. But I'm pretty much against inflation for the most part.

I think "inflation" is the wrong word to use here, I think the issue being raised is one of "saturation".

I still don't see the issue, but I am far from all-knowing, so I'll concede that I may be completely wrong.

I also acknowledge that "inflation" could be a serious problem in other games, someone brought up EVE a while back, and in a game as complex as that, I can see the problem very well.

But, take WoW as an example. Once, there was a book you had to find in some dungeon that gave you a quest to do that, in the end, gave you an awesome sword. Now, at first the sword was REALLY rare because the book you needed to start the quest chain was REALLY rare. So, people paid through the nose in order to get it. Then, people started farming for the book, the rarity dropped dramatically, and pretty soon every prot-spec'd tank at level 60 had one. Once that happened, the value of the book dropped to almost nothing.

Now, lets say that instead of 1 item, it was a book that started a very long quest in order to get a whole set of items. The same story would follow there as well, once the set was very rare and after awhile, it wasn't.

Now, lets say that instead of a set of items, it unlocked every rare item in the game. Same story happens again, except now, every item is worth the same.

I don't see a problem in any of the examples above. Even in the last example, you still aren't taking into account several things.

a. Player level: to use all of those items (you still have to hit the level cap).

b. Player stats: to use the items (you can't max all of your stats, so you still have to aim for specific gear).

c. player choice: If the "best" gear made my warrior look like a ballerina, I still wouldn't use it.

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Silver wrote:

This where you lose me. Breaking items has nothing to do with creating a fun item sink method. There is no need to artificially add an un-fun item sink. I don't think that is "the only way" to to curb gear inflation. Limiting supply doesn't really work well either, especially in a game with unlimited play-time potential.

Well, I didn't say breaking items had anything to do with creating a fun item sink method. I didn't say there is a need to artificially add an un-fun item sink, and I didn't say breaking items was the only way to curb inflation.

There are any number of ways to curb, delay, or otherwise slow the rate of inflation. But to eliminate it entirely, items have to break or be otherwise consumed, or supply has to be limited. Otherwise they will eventually accumulate, however quickly or slowly that might happen.

btw I'm not really advocating any particular approach, I'm just talking theoretically. As someone else pointed out, the economy only needs to be stable for the life of the game, not the next thousand years. Depending on how the game actually turns out in practice, inflation might not be an issue at all.
If GGG can manage to keep the game free of bots, dupes, and other cheats, it probably won't be much of an issue. Unfortunately I am not aware of any game that has accomplished such a feat.

This comment is only taking into account that item inflation/market saturation/whatever you want to call it will end up being an issue!

If the market becomes saturated with particular items, then we need some way to get rid of those items from the economy (through some kind of item sink), otherwise they're not worth much. Since GGG is planning on releasing expansions, why not have some kind of "crafting" system implemented? For example, instead of just having the next tier of items drop from bosses, what if bosses drop recipes to craft the next tier item, and in the recipe it requires a particular item from the secondary tier (the old primary tier for gear). Then you take this recipe and item to some NPC who crafts (or trades or something like this) to get this new highest tier item.

You could also achieve this same result with some kind of scroll/orb/etc. that takes a particular item in one tier and randomly rerolls it for an item in the next highest tier. The nice thing about this is that it sinks the item you have to roll the orb on and you don't know what you're gonna get. So you might end up with the item you want or (more likely) you've picked up an item from the next higher tier that you'll have to trade to get the item from this tier that you want.

So, in order to end up with the highest tiered gear, you have to grind your way up all the way from the bottom (or trade or whatever) to have the best stuff. Since items are put into these sinks you don't have AS BIG of an issue with market saturation of a particular item.

Thoughts?

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Malice wrote:

I didn't say breaking items was the only way to curb inflation.

Right, you said limiting supply could also curb inflation, which it really doesn't, it just delays inflation. However, you wrote this sentence -

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Malice wrote:

[T]here is only one way to avoid inflation, and that is to have items decay as they are used and eventually break.

Didn't this convey that there was only one way to curb inflation?

But because you say this -

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Malice wrote:

There are any number of ways to curb, delay, or otherwise slow the rate of inflation. But to eliminate it entirely, items have to break or be otherwise consumed, or supply has to be limited. Otherwise they will eventually accumulate, however quickly or slowly that might happen.

It is clear you understand there are other methods to consume items, methods that don't necessarily require breaking items.

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Malice wrote:

Depending on how the game actually turns out in practice, inflation might not be an issue at all.

This is what I'm hoping for also. Though, I won't be disappointed if something like turning items into materials, or some other method of item consumption is in the game.

I'm not trying to pick a fight here either, this topic is pretty much inundated with debate, and not many creative ideas on actually how to remove excess items from the economy, which is what its intended purpose was.

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Silver wrote:

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Malice wrote:

[T]here is only one way to avoid inflation, and that is to have items decay as they are used and eventually break.

Didn't this convey that there was only one way to curb inflation?

I don't think so.

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resira wrote:

I don't think so.

Semantics!

Though I should have been more clear. :p

Didn't GGG say they considered their economy one of the most important aspects of the game. I seriously think if they are competent enough to make this game then they have already determined what inflation will or will not do to the economy.

We're not debating GGG's competency. This thread has nothing to do with competency in fact.

This thread is about thinking up creative ways to remove items from the economy.

Few of which that have actually been thought up.

I suggest an occasional undesirable permanent loss chance of equipped item in a case of death (could be different in PvP). This seems to solve the death penalty problem discussed in another tread and will do good as an item sink. I understand that majority of players will decline the very fact of this chance existence, but it brings so much fun in the game).

The better gear you have, it becomes easier to play, however, you will play much less reckless and that is a ward against gameplay distortion by overpowered gear.