Zealot's Oath + Vaal Pact + health regeneration

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VictorDoom wrote:

i tried it, it doesnt work, you cant regen.

Hopefully Mark or someone else can re-word one or both of the keystones to clarify that this is the case.

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Xendran wrote:

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There isn't a clearer wording that wouldn't take an entire page of text to explain.

Not even remotely close to anything resembling the truth.

Zealot's Oath
Life Regeneration and "Life Regeneration" nodes are instead applied to Energy Shield.

Thaty is probably the most unnecessary thing I have ever read on the forums. "Life Regeneration" is a stat. If you have such a problem differentiating the stat form the name of a node (which also gives the stat) there's a greater problem than the wording of ZO. And if that's not enough JUST CHANGE THE NAME OF THE NODES. Name them "vitality" or something.

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Vaal Pact
Life Regeneration, "Life Regeneration" nodes and life recovery from flasks have no effect.
Life Leech applies instantly.

"Life Regeneration nodes" grant a stat. Vaal pact already tells you that stat is now zero. If you have zero of a stat it can't be converted this is an underlying theme of conversion in this game. So not only are you needlessly lengthsning the node description you're not conveying any information not already conveyed.

See pre-buff Acro-EB interaction. Which apparently everyone understood implicitly. Why not this?

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EDIT: There's another thing with ZO. By life regen it could be "Life Regeneration", the node, it could be your characters Life Regeneration being converted, and then there's the question as to if it's the first one, does that mean that ONLY "Life Regeneration" nodes apply or does it also apply to flat regen from gear and vitality, neither of which are "Life Regeneration" nodes.

"Life Regeneration the node"s use the exact same wording as all other life regeneration effects and nodes. There name is inconsequential THEY ARE NOT A STAT THEY GRANT A STAT.

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Specifying it like i have above completely negates any questions about what the keystones do, and how they interact with each other. It makes it clear that there is nothing left to apply to energy shield with ZO.

All those specifications have done is lengthen the node explanation with no net gain in information conveyed.

Saying that "Life Regeneration nodes apply too" is just adding a sentence which is implicit in the current description. Of course life regeneration nodes apply too, they grant the stat. How about we JUST CHANGE THE NODE NAME. Because that's actually pertinent.

Look at it this way. When you go get Ghost Reaver do you wonder if it means the life leech granted by the node or the one granted by your gear or both. Because if that's not something you wonder for ghost reaver (Life leech applies to ES instead of health) then why are you wondering about the exact same thing wit ha different stat and ZO/VP? It's the same exact concept but apparently people understand that well enough.

TL;DR:
Display life regeneration as, for example with 4000 HP:
"Life Regneration per second: 5.3% +15 (227)"

Vaal Pact wording changed to "Life Regeneration and life recovery from flasks" as opposed to "life recovery from flasks and regeneration"


These are objectively positive changes. They both clarify information, fix consistency, and give you a fast way to break down where your hp regen is coming from as well as checking your % without manually counting your nodes or using the offline skill planner


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Thaty is probably the most unnecessary thing I have ever read on the forums. "Life Regeneration" is a stat. If you have such a problem differentiating the stat form the name of a node (which also gives the stat) there's a greater problem than the wording of ZO. And if that's not enough JUST CHANGE THE NAME OF THE NODES. Name them "vitality" or something.

This just makes you look like an asshole and will make people not take you seriously. Especially since you entirely missed the point, and it's about consistency and not understanding. I've said more than once that i don't have a problem differentiating, but you clearly did not take thread context into consideration. Singling out a post from a thread only works if you have full context, something you ignored.

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"Life Regeneration nodes" grant a stat. Vaal pact already tells you that stat is now zero. If you have zero of a stat it can't be converted this is an underlying theme of conversion in this game. So not only are you needlessly lengthsning the node description you're not conveying any information not already conveyed.

See pre-buff Acro-EB interaction. Which apparently everyone understood implicitly. Why not this?

Path of Exile takes things very literally when it comes to wording.
Vaal Pact says exactly: Life recovery from flasks and regeneration
NOT: Life regeneration and life recovery from flasks

Zealot's Oath says: Life Regeneration applies to energy shield instead of life

While i personally understand what Vaal Pact does, the wording when taken literally just means that if your life regen stat is recovering your life, it has no effect. It does not say Energy Shield recovery from life regeneration, nor does it explicitly state that it zeroes your life regen stat. It says Life recovery FROM regeneration. In a literal sense, this means if regen is regenerating something other than life, it will have an effect.

It specifically states LIFE RECOVERY from life regeneration. Not ANY recovery. Not life and energy shield recover. Life recovery and only life recovery. If you are getting ES recovery from life regeneration, it should technically still work according to this keystone.

This is why this thread exists in the first place.

I personally understood it, but for consistency it should change. It was never about understanding.

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"Life Regeneration the node"s use the exact same wording as all other life regeneration effects and nodes. There name is inconsequential THEY ARE NOT A STAT THEY GRANT A STAT.

I'm starting to feel like there is an issue with how regeneration is displayed.
I think that to make it fully convey what it wants to say, regeneration should be displayed in your stats screen as, for example with 4000 hp: "Life Regeneration per Second: 5.3% + 15 (227)"

TIP: ^ Things like that are how threads like this are suppoed to go, not "lol if you cant understand it you have bigger problems".


That right there makes it very clear that you are getting 5.3% + 15 ES regen, and not, for example, a conversion of your flat regen number.

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All those specifications have done is lengthen the node explanation with no net gain in information conveyed.

The existence of this thread contradicts this statement, because the way i had them worded makes it very obvious that vaal pact cannot interact with zealot's oath.

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Look at it this way. When you go get Ghost Reaver do you wonder if it means the life leech granted by the node or the one granted by your gear or both. Because if that's not something you wonder for ghost reaver (Life leech applies to ES instead of health) then why are you wondering about the exact same thing wit ha different stat and ZO/VP? It's the same exact concept but apparently people understand that well enough.

Life leech has it's own issues with consistency regarding it and regen, but i digress: Life leech and life regen both all culminate into a number. This number always applies the same way with leech, it's coming from your damage. With zealot's oath, it's changing from coming from your HP to coming from your ES, but in a literal sense it could be taken that the displayed number from your life regen is instead applied to your ES. Again, it's not about understanding, it's about consistency.

I really do think that changing regen to be displayed as "Life Regeneration per second: x% +y (z)" negates the need to reword zealot's oath.

Vaal pact still needs to say life regen, not life recovery FROM life regen, however.

And this, my friends is how you make a constructive post, rather than making a big post that cumulates to nothing other than "i understand it so it must be perfectly fine".

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Xendran wrote:

TL;DR:
Display life regeneration as, for example with 4000 HP:
"Life Regneration per second: 5.3% +15 (227)"

Vaal Pact wording changed to "Life Regeneration and life recovery from flasks" as opposed to "life recovery from flasks and regeneration"


These are objectively positive changes. They both clarify information, fix consistency, and give you a fast way to break down where your hp regen is coming from as well as checking your % without manually counting your nodes or using the offline skill planner

Those are actually pertinent points that I can concede to.

"

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Thaty is probably the most unnecessary thing I have ever read on the forums. "Life Regeneration" is a stat. If you have such a problem differentiating the stat form the name of a node (which also gives the stat) there's a greater problem than the wording of ZO. And if that's not enough JUST CHANGE THE NAME OF THE NODES. Name them "vitality" or something.

This just makes you look like an asshole and will make people not take you seriously. Especially since you entirely missed the point, and it's about consistency and not understanding. I've said more than once that i don't have a problem differentiating, but you clearly did not take thread context into consideration. Singling out a post from a thread only works if you have full context, something you ignored.

If a player has difficulty differentiating between a node and a stat it is in fact a greater problem than ZO's wording on their end. I was not calling yo udumb. I was saying any player that NEEDS that wording (to understand that life regeneration nodes are actually granting life regeneration, because apparently its not obvious to them) has greater problems and it's not ZO's fault.

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"Life Regeneration nodes" grant a stat. Vaal pact already tells you that stat is now zero. If you have zero of a stat it can't be converted this is an underlying theme of conversion in this game. So not only are you needlessly lengthsning the node description you're not conveying any information not already conveyed.

See pre-buff Acro-EB interaction. Which apparently everyone understood implicitly. Why not this?

Path of Exile takes things very literally when it comes to wording.
Vaal Pact says exactly: Life recovery from flasks and regeneration
NOT: Life regeneration and life recovery from flasks

Zealot's Oath says: Life Regeneration applies to energy shield instead of life

While i personally understand what Vaal Pact does, the wording when taken literally just means that if your life regen stat is recovering your life, it has no effect. It does not say Energy Shield recovery from life regeneration, nor does it explicitly state that it zeroes your life regen stat. It says Life recovery FROM regeneration. In a literal sense, this means if regen is regenerating something other than life, it will have an effect.

It specifically states LIFE RECOVERY from life regeneration. Not ANY recovery. Not life and energy shield recover. Life recovery and only life recovery. If you are getting ES recovery from life regeneration, it should technically still work according to this keystone.

This is why this thread exists in the first place.

I personally understood it, but for consistency it should change. It was never about understanding.

I will concede (because you actually came up with a better wording and not tha previous deliberately obtuse contrived thing) that VP could be clarified further. However the current inconsistency is a result of english semantics and an inability to efficiently convey information without reprtition.

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"Life Regeneration the node"s use the exact same wording as all other life regeneration effects and nodes. There name is inconsequential THEY ARE NOT A STAT THEY GRANT A STAT.

I'm starting to feel like there is an issue with how regeneration is displayed.
I think that to make it fully convey what it wants to say, regeneration should be displayed in your stats screen as, for example with 4000 hp: "Life Regeneration per Second: 5.3% + 15 (227)"

Yes life regeneration is displayed poorly to the player. That is actually true, because the game handles % regeneration as an actual stat and players don't explicitly know this.

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TIP: ^ Things like that are how threads like this are suppoed to go, not "lol if you cant understand it you have bigger problems".

The wording you chose implied tah tthe reader was incapable of understanding the difference between a character stat and a skill name. Forgive me if I find deliberately obtuse interpretation of nearly entirely transparent mechanics to be laughably inconsequential.

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That right there makes it very clear that you are getting 5.3% + 15 ES regen, and not, for example, a conversion of your flat regen number.

Yes that is an actually good way to display information.

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All those specifications have done is lengthen the node explanation with no net gain in information conveyed.

The existence of this thread contradicts this statement, because the way i had them worded makes it very obvious that vaal pact cannot interact with zealot's oath.

Neither of those versions conveyed any more appreciable information than the current versions and implied tha tthe reader was mentally deficient.

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Look at it this way. When you go get Ghost Reaver do you wonder if it means the life leech granted by the node or the one granted by your gear or both. Because if that's not something you wonder for ghost reaver (Life leech applies to ES instead of health) then why are you wondering about the exact same thing wit ha different stat and ZO/VP? It's the same exact concept but apparently people understand that well enough.

Life leech has it's own issues with consistency regarding it and regen, but i digress: Life leech and life regen both all culminate into a number. This number always applies the same way with leech, it's coming from your damage. With zealot's oath, it's changing from coming from your HP to coming from your ES, but in a literal sense it could be taken that the displayed number from your life regen is instead applied to your ES. Again, it's not about understanding, it's about consistency.

Let me just write it out then because the analogy to GR I was making was

You proposed this: Life Regeneration and "Life Regeneration" nodes are instead applied to Energy Shield.
From This: Life Regeneration applies to Energy Shield instead of Life

The analogy is thus

This: Life Leech and "Life Leech" nodes recover Energy Shield instead of Life.
From: Life Leech applies to Energy Shield instead of Life

That proposed ZO change is not consistent with any current wordings, and is just plain bad. It implies several things, among them that players somehow implicitly understand the troll's blood interaction but not the "life regeneration" node interaction. When the two nodes do the exact same thing in different magnitudes. There has been no net gain in information conveyed, only the implication that players are idiots. and then you do it the AGAIN with vaal pact.

Because apparently players can't differentiate nodes from stats. That is why my post was angry.

And the reason Vaal reads "ambiguously" is because

Life Recovery from Flasks and (Life) Regeneration has no effect

is how the line implicitly reads. Because life regeneration does recover life. It is *mildly* inconsistent with other stat removal nodes because of the poor synergy with the concepts. And the decision to omit "Life" from the description of regeneration.

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I really do think that changing regen to be displayed as "Life Regeneration per second: x% +y (z)" negates the need to reword zealot's oath.

Vaal pact still needs to say life regen, not life recovery FROM life regen, however.

Yes to regeneration change. Of course then people will still ask "why did my regeneration dgo down when I applied it to ZO" 5 times a day. That will never stop you realize.

Vaal just needs another "Life" added to the description to separate it into two objects (Life Recovery from Flasks and Life Regeneration) and it reads consistently. People will still probably ask how it interacts with ZO no matter what you do to change it tho.

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And this, my friends is how you make a constructive post, rather than making a big post that cumulates to nothing other than "i understand it so it must be perfectly fine".

And you just made a stab that turns a good post into what is nearlyan ad hominem. Good jorb.

My entire post boiled down to "If you think the player needs to be treated like they're mentally deficient then maybe you need a new playerbase for the game". Because that's what those wordings were and why I was so very dismissive.

Also because I *do* understand the wording implicitly. Years and years of playing aRPGs mean that the you understand these things. New players ask these questions and until you say

ZO: Life Regeneration applies to ES not Life, and % regeneration regenerates a % of ES not life

VP: Life Flasks do not heal you. Life regeneration does not heal you. If you take ZO it will not cause your regeneration to heal ES.

People WILL ASK these clarification questions. And once you do that they'll find new things to question (If I take US will it stop me from dodging?).

And what amazes me, is why people IMPLICITLY understand VP+GR, but somehow manage to be entirely incapable of understanding VP+ZO.

So ZO works in a similar way to Blood Magic? Do all of the calculations, get the total amount of life regeneration, VP multiplies that by 0 - and then apply that number to energy shield.

So it's a good idea to have VP and Ghost Reaver if you're a CI build, but VP and ZO together don't work. I can't imagine actually getting VP on anything except a CI/Ghost Reaver build.

I can't even believe this thread is happening.

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Mark_GGG wrote:

It is correct that VP needs to change wording now that we have ZO - as it prevents all recovery from life regeneration, not just life recovery, and that distinction is meaningful now that ZO is in the game. I'll be changing this for 0.11.1

However, there seem to be some other misapprehensions in this thread.

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Xendran wrote:

For example, ZO does not convert your Life Regeneration to ES Regeneration. It applies your regen nodes to energy shield.

This is not true. ZO does nothing that's specific to nodes in any way, nor could it. These suggested wordings do not make any sense in the context of the game

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Xendran wrote:

Zealot's Oath
Life Regeneration and "Life Regeneration" nodes are instead applied to Energy Shield.

Vaal Pact
Life Regeneration, "Life Regeneration" nodes and life recovery from flasks have no effect.
Life Leech applies instantly.

Calling out "Life Regeneration" nodes specifically in that manner is confusing and redundant, adding no meaning but obscuring what the passives do. They don't do anything to nodes, they apply to your life regeneration. The nodes just give you life regeneration (which is what ZO and VP apply to).

The post you quoted was made totally obsolete by my other post... my understanding already changed.

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Display life regeneration as, for example with 4000 HP:
"Life Regneration per second: 5.3% +15 (227)"

Vaal Pact wording changed to "Life Regeneration and life recovery from flasks" as opposed to "life recovery from flasks and regeneration"

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bbblame wrote:

I can't even believe this thread is happening.

Agreed

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bbblame wrote:

I can't even believe this thread is happening.

Vaal pact says it removes:

Life Recovery from regeneration
not
Life regeneration

Mark even agrees that with PoE's intended literal meaning, Vaal Pact does not do what it says it does.