Is there a hidden IAS stacking penalty?
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" 100% sure I was looking at frenzy. I was actually comparing frenzy to my lightning strike trying to figure out what was going on. Because lightning strike and poison arrow both had 0.55 attack speed (which the only difference between it and frenzy is the 35% from faster attacks and the 9% extra on the frenzy skill per charge). Lightning strike and PA both went to 0.47 with frenzy charges but frenzy only went from 0.43 to 0.41. It did still seem to attack faster with frenzy charges than a 0.02 attacks a second. But again that is just a visual calculation. Out of curiosity here is all the gear so you can do an IAS check to see if it is actually stacking properly. Unavailable Unavailable Unavailable Unavailable Unavailable Unavailable Unavailable Unavailable Unavailable Unavailable Last edited by Ascendic on Jul 4, 2012, 10:26:43 PM
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MATH!
Ivory Bow: 1.35 attacks per second +11% Attack Speed (bow mod) +9% Attack Speed (gloves mod) +11% Attack Speed (passives) Without Frenzy charges, your attacks per second would be: 1.35 * (1 + 0.11 + 0.09 + 0.11) = 1.7685 which would be an attack speed of 0.565451 seconds! Now, using Frenzy... +35% (Faster Attacks support gem) +36% (Frenzy 9% per frenzy charge) +20% (4 Frenzy charges at 5% each) 1.35 * (1 + 0.11 + 0.09 + 0.11 + 0.35 + 0.36 +0.20) = 2.997 which comes out to an attack speed of 0.333667 seconds. So, I'm not sure why your skill sheet is showing 0.31... What is your default attack speed with and without frenzy charges? It should be 0.56 (or 0.57 depending on rounding) without, and 0.49 with. Edit: Are you sure you don't have that 6% attack speed increase right next to the ranger node? If you have that it takes your passives to 17% bonus, and then all my numbers match up with what you've reported. TehHammer is not a crime! Last edited by TheRabbit303 on Jul 5, 2012, 12:48:16 PM
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"Incorrect. Note: I'm rounding values as I go here, which will introduce some slight error, but this should be good enough. The 11% attack speed on the bow is a local mod affecting the base attack speed of the bow. It's 1.35 * 1.11 = 1.5 attacks per second base from the bow. This base value is affected by all the other increases: 1.5 * (1 + 0.09 + 0.11) = 1.8 attacks per second, each attack taking 0.556 seconds. With the frenzy skill and four charges, that's 1.5 * (1 + 0.09 + 0.11 + 0.35 + 0.36 + 0.20) = 1.5 * 2.11 = 3.8 attacks per second, or 3.165 seconds per attack, which is pretty close to what you're seeing. | |
" I think you meant 0.3165 seconds per attack. This sounds right then. I am not sure why it was only showing 0.41 seconds per attack before but I will keep an eye on it to see if it happens again. | |
" Uhm, shouldn't it say MORE attack speed in that case? Are all local mods multiplicative and not just added to the multiplier? Haven't seen anything about that in the mechanics thread... TehHammer is not a crime!
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"No, it's additive. But it's affecting the base value of the item, not the attack speed of the skill, and is additive with other modifiers to that (which would have to come from more mods). It's saying "The base attack speed for using this bow is 11% faster than a normal bow of this type" - whereas you attack speed increases from passives and skill are saying "your attacks are X% faster" and are affecting the base speed which you get from the bow. I'm pretty sure that now all local mods which are % increases affect the base values of the item. Look at the bow, and you'll notice it reports it's attacks per second as being 1.5, because it factors in local increases - that bow's attack speed is increased such that it does 1.5 attacks per second, where an ordinary ivory bow only does 1.25. If the local mod was just additive to the regular attack speed increases, that number would be incorrect, and we wouldn't be able to display the value on the item like that. Last edited by Mark_GGG on Jul 5, 2012, 11:10:49 PM
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Interesting, I just always assumed the numbers on the gear itself was "in a vacuum".
So what you're saying is all your other skills and multipliers base what they do on what the item itself says? So if you had 2 swords: Sword A 16-28 damage 100% increased damage and Sword B 16-28 damage Adds 8-14 physical damage (The base sword having 8-14 damage) You would see absolutely no difference between equipping the two of them? That totally changes everything I know about the game, I've always been favoring items that have flat added bonuses on them over ones that had percentage increases because I thought (from reading the mechanics thread) that the flat increase was substantially better because of the way the multipliers worked. TehHammer is not a crime!
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That's correct. Not all the local modifiers always worked that way a while back (damage always has), but they were changed to do so partially for consistency, but mostly because if both those swords say "16-28 damage" then they should both do 16-28 damage, rather than those being meaningless numbers which aren't even used in the actual calculation. And it doesn't make sense for two swords which say they do the same damage to give different results because they interact with your stats differently.
The same logic applies to local mods affecting defenses on armour, or to things like attack speed and critical strike chance on weapons. It an item shows a modified value for some stat because of it's mod, that displayed value is what you get from the item. then your own stats apply to that. Unless something about your stats changes, two items giving you the same value will end in the same result, regardless of how the item's value was improved from the base. Note that this only applies to local mods - the ones which only affect the item they're on. These are things like increased armour/evasion/ES on armour pieces, and increased attack speed/crit chance/damage on weapons. Those are also the ones which cause that property of the item to be displayed in blue as an updated value. So you don't really need to understand local vs nonlocal mods, you just need to know that the value the item tells you when you look at it, including the modifier if it's blue because it's modified by the item's mods, is the value you get when you equip the item Last edited by Mark_GGG on Jul 6, 2012, 12:30:21 AM
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Thanks, going to make sure that's clear(er) on the wiki.
TehHammer is not a crime!
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