Dual Wield feels, lackluster
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The following attacks only apply with the main hand:
Ground Slam Leap Slam Double Strike That's it. Just those three - because the characters (so far) only have animations for using the main hand with them. All other attacks in the game will alternate both weapons when dual wielding, unless you have two different weapons and the skill only works with one of them. Dual strike is a special case - it attacks with both weapons in the same attack. That's the thing which makes dual strike special as an attack. It's not what dual wielding does all the time. Cleave also hits with both weapons at once - this is because it got animated that way, so I suggested that we should make it hit with both since it looked like it would. However, hitting with both weapons at once is a 100% increase in DPS (on top of the increased attack speed from dual wielding) compared to a standard hit - to just hit with both weapons at the same time while dual wielding would mean that with one-hand/shield or a two-handed weapon, cleave would correctly deal the equivalent of one melee hit to each thing in it's range, whereas dual wielding would do two melee hits to everything in range. That would be completely unbalanced, and the skill couldn't be balanced for dual wield like that without being useless for non-dual wielding. So to match the animation, we made cleave hit with both weapons when dual wielding, but at a 50% damage penalty - this cancelled out the doubling of damage. Over time, that penalty got raised slightly, and now sits at 40% - making the attack slightly better for dual wielding that other setups, without being completely unbalanced. The base case of dual wielding is that you alternate your weapons, thus allowing you to attack faster (10% increased attack speed - this is actually becoming 10% more attack speed, a multiplicative bonus, but I'm not sure if that's on beta yet or is coming in 0.9.11), and allowing you to parry/block opposing attacks (15% base block chance). Dual wielding is the middle ground between the damage of two-handed weapons, and the defensiveness of a shield. Dual wielding is not intended to have double the DPS of using one one-handed weapon, which is what happens for attacks which deal damage with both weapons added together. We can't make other attacks do that without the same problem we had with cleave, and probably the same solution - an ugly-looking half-damage penalty when dual wielding, to cancel out doubling the damage. Without such a penalty, we can't have an attack that uses both weapons while dual wielding and is balanced when doing so, but still useful when not dual wielding. Unfortunately, bleeding the dual strike mechanic out to cleave has led some people to mistakenly think that's the base way that dual wielding should work, and thus believe that there are only 2 skills that work with dual wielding - that's not that case. Other than the three attacks at the top of my post, all attacks work with dual wielding - you use both of your weapons, on after the other, thus allowing you to attack significantly faster than if you only had one of the weapons. Only those two attacks double your damage while dual wielding - on top of already getting the standard dual wielding bonus to attack speed (and block). Dual strike because getting that double damage it's it's specific 'thing', and cleave because the artists made the animation that way, so we balanced with with a penalty that (nearly) halves the damage. Last edited by Mark_GGG#0000 on Jun 28, 2012, 7:57:44 PM
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This is how I artificially manipulated one of my characters into when she'd swing her mace, and when she'd swing her sword: Double swing+Glacial hammer. This was one of the few combinations I found where I could completely control which hand she'd use and when. Most other compatible skills would alternate.
...just one of the many strange things I've discovered as I muck around. If I like a game, it'll either be amazing later or awful forever. There's no in-between.
I am Path of Exile's biggest whale. Period. |
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Well, what problem add both weapons use to whirling blades and make same penalty as on cleave, it have nice animation for it, also why it called blades when skill aply only 1 weapon? How viable puncture skill with swords and claws vs other solotarget skills for this weapons after phys damage rebalance, most melee builds use 1 solotarget and 1 aoe, why we need choose puncture?
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" Thx so much for the response mark. I've been in a few beta's and its rare to see a dev actually response with how the game was intended to work. I really appreciate it. Given the explanation I have tried other skills to success with my character and see much more possibilities. Might I suggest given the more complicated nature of dual wielding you might add something like his to the main site so people are more aware of what is going on? Either way thx again for the response |
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" Thanks for explaining. I think you should add the key info I quoted here somewhere where you can't miss it in game. I'd suggest in the tooltip of the item if it's equipped and dual wielded. Just add two lines or something under the magic attributes, in it's own section much like the items implicit value, like so: "10% increased attack speed due to dual wield 15% block chance due to dual wield" |
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I feel that the benefits of dual wielding is in the passives.
The 10% attack speed and block chance is a nice bonus. There is no way to get 80%+ attack speed from passives without using dual wield. My shadow build has 94% base attack speed from passives +10% from the dual wield, and 36% from equipment. This amounts to a total of 140% attack speed. Before any skills are used. You could put Haste aura, and bloodthirst for another 25%, but you can do that without dual wield, too. My point is that the total gets a lot higher with the dual wield passives and innate buff. "That's how you die properly, Sailor Boy.."
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" u can also use faster atacks gem on 20lvl with 20 quality it give 57% as. I like dw sword and axes cuz it can use cleave that aply both weapons mods on every hit and its aoe so i can have utility weapon in offhand with manaleech and liffeleech or life on hit\kill, while with daggers whirling blades prock this mods only on 2nd hit. Last edited by ykyshaeq#7817 on Jul 1, 2012, 5:17:54 PM
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"Whirling blades will use both weapons if both are of appropriate types - it's a special case in that instead of alternating for each hit, it picks one at random - you're spinning to fast to hit any particular enemy with a specific weapon, they get hit with whichever one happens to be near them as you zoom past (simulated by picking main hand/off hand at random each hit) | |
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So, let me get this straight because dual wielding is so confusing in this game...
1) Only two skills attack with both weapons at the same time. 2) The three skills you mentioned don't use dual wielding at all. 3) All other skills use dual wield, but instead of attacking at once, if you spam the skill the attack speed is increased? If this is correct, then no wonder I find dual wielding in this game pointless because i didn't know about the 3rd point. I was spamming Dual Strike on my Duelist for 25 levels and getting bored out of my skull left clicking the same skill for hours in this game.... Last edited by Buffo#0290 on Jul 2, 2012, 3:17:45 PM
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I have a duel wielder and I have found the best way to do stuff is to jsut try it out. I had not read this thread and just tried gems and stuff.
I use a few different skills and find them all viable in the right context. I use Dual Strike Cleave Heavy Hit Fireball Whirling blades Phase (whatever its called) Totem And i just experiment and try stuff out its fun. I figure out what works and what doesnt by trial and error. At level 25 in act2 my guy is running around carving stuff up. Tu Meke GGG
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