so, about that 3.25 melee rework - how to not kill melee entirely in few steps:

big +1 from me actually found myself nodding the whole way down.

We've got yet another example of the fact that people play melee when its numerically viable to fix its problems yet they will still avoid that the easiest way to fix most of them is just to provide numerical buffs.

Ambidextrous has 3 things going for it that have been relentlessly bombarded at GGG every patch for years by the melee enjoyers

Doesn't use the reworked "bugged" swingtime
no inherent attack speed penalty honestly the opposite
good numbers as a result of above + some of the available cheese scaling.

Players are then free to fix the defensive requirements, extra targets + melee splash themselves and are doing so.

I'd love to go back to playing an EQ jugg every league please make my dreams come true ;p (nothing will change)

"

alhazred70 wrote:

Judging the health or worth of investing in a wide slew of skills (in a game about "build diversity") by the performance of replica alberons boneshatter LS and MS would be exceptions. Exceptions test the rule.

The exceptions clearly show in the general body of melee skills that we have:

a derth of available flat dmg
poor mechanical advantage
poor scaling potential
too much opportunity cost required (especially defensively) to make the "juice worth the squeeze"

We can also simply ask expert players like Ben_ what they think. If you'd like some enlightenment I have a couple clips of him talking about this issue.

I mean assuming you aren't more informed about the game than Ben is?

It's really funny how you always hide behind streamers you know that? Can't even justify your viewpoints using your own arguments?

I've seen a bunch of his "rants" on melee and honestly, i am not going to disagree when he says that Cleave is a lackluster skill, it is. In the same video though he also pointed out how good Molten Strike is. Both are melee skills.
Do you have a video where he actually goes through a skill by skill analysis? That would be something actually interesting.

I don't deny that there are lackluster melee skills, it's just that i also know for a fact that there are a lot of good ones too and when i talk about melee, i talk about the archetype as a whole not just it's trash.

Meanwhile, you and the other people who constantly bitch about melee only pick out the weakest skills like heavy strike, typically stuffed into shitty builds using RT and stun and then compare them to stuff like explody totems and pre nerf penace brand like they are examplary of all the spells in the game and pat yourself on the shoulder for the great deduction that those spells are actually better than those melee skills, well congrats on your insight..
How about looking at incinerate or firestorm and taking those as a benchmark for spells? How about holding on for a second and realise that channeling skills and selfcast in general is in a way worse spot then even the worst melee skills when going on your "spells are so awesome" trips? The garbage dump of the spell archetype in this game is actually way bigger than the entire melee archetype if you compare the number of gems in them.

Lightning strike, Molten strike, Frost Blades, Flicker Strike, Boneshatter, Earthshatter, Smite, Dual Strike of ambidexterity, Volcanic fissure of snaking, Rage Vortex and so on and so fourth. There is a whole bunch of skills that are strong both numerically and mechanically and you go and write them all of as "exceptions" and insist that the likes of Cleave define the entire archetype when really, it doesn't. Heck, even that skill got a decent version now with cleave of rage.

Aside from people who just have no clue what they are doing build wise those double standards are the worst part of those melee "discussions". Just look at the opening post, the first 3 paragraphs are literally just excluding those "exceptions" so that his rant at least appears to have some credibility to it. Not that his list is complete but oh well.

Anyway, not like i'll get any decent arguments out of you and ben is unlikely to post here so no point in continuing this. Just keep whining, maybe GGG will actually end up not nerfing melee during a patch in a decade or so, miracles happen after all.

is there a reason you pretend that damage values of these skills and archetype as a whole is not a problem?

you see 2300 STR Warpath build with Paradoxica dealing 50m damage - 'ye, melee good'

i see a 600pdps 1h barely scratching 5m with all marks checked in POB

on the same f.. skill. and that 600pdps weapon seems to costs more than ENTIRE stacker's gear (i know there is no limit with synth %attr implicits but that example had just ones coming from ring corruptions)


if your reaction to this is 'just play whats good' then.. ok I guess. in fact people do this - all mathil's innovative, 'nobody believed it possible' builds are XXX stackers when the skill choice is irrelevant, it is the flat damage from stacking that matters. and ofc - attr stacking also provides defenses, in heaps.

once you remove str/int/dex stacking, ES stacking (Ephemeral Edge/Energy Blade), faux melee (Molten Strike aka Nimis doubles my damage for free!) and stick to phys weapons - aka the choice that does not need to be best but it should at least work - you end up with 5m (unless it uses external source of flat damage: Rage, Trauma/Support) and locked out out of content

phys weapons are undertuned as f.. compared to various 'magic' stackers. white weapon with synt implicit + gear with some semi garbage rolls > any mirrored phys weapon that ever existed

this is a problem - content seems to be balanced without taking that into account

why i care? because if I need to do the stacking bs it means that we enter D3 build system when the character is the same, just swap the skill and 1-2 supports. how boring and small


this is not about skills, their mechanic or whatnot. ffs people are wiping the floor with - Boneshatter. vs bosses it is nothing but an autoattack - the epithomy of suck. but it deals damage, 2-3times more than next best option. and people do just fine - because the skill provides that what is missing: flat base damage. stuff that hurts melee players on a fundamental level - to reach big numbers you need scaling vectors and solid base values. scaling vectors are mostly universal - spells/minions share the same stuff - but the base for melee is garbage. it cannot end with parity and it doesnt. unless 'magic' creates good base from pair of stinking boots

Can't wait for Glacial Hammer to get another 8% damage buff. :D

"

sidtherat wrote:

why i care? because if I need to do the stacking bs it means that we enter D3 build system when the character is the same, just swap the skill and 1-2 supports. how boring and small

exactly, what I was saying in multiple threads here, but I always get flamed that its not the case. When we literally have SET items in poe. There is only fake build diversity. True build diversity would mean healthy base game interactions and scaling vectors, while uniques would just make things spicy. Right now you just play few league start builds into abusing uniques/stacking.

"

Baharoth15 wrote:

It's really funny how you always hide behind streamers you know that? Can't even justify your viewpoints using your own arguments?

I've seen a bunch of his "rants" on melee and honestly, i am not going to disagree when he says that Cleave is a lackluster skill, it is. In the same video though he also pointed out how good Molten Strike is. Both are melee skills.
Do you have a video where he actually goes through a skill by skill analysis? That would be something actually interesting.

"hide behind"? Why do you need such a loaded school yard style emotional characterization?

I've stated my own views multiple times and supported them. I'm not hiding behind anyone. I literally just used the exceptions to test the rule and state my case and anyone who's having a good faith discussion about this can see that instead of trying to make emotional implications.

I bring up Ben because expertise supports my argument and counters anyone who's trying to maintain the tired old narrative that "melee is fine because there's a couple things you can do"

Supporting my own very detailed and very repeated arguments with an expert puts "defenders of the status quo" into the unenviable position to have to refute my arguments AND THE GAMES BEST PLAYERS ARGUMENTS.

I'm sorry but its abundantly clear from literal years of having this same argument here that some "doubt merchants", or perhaps uninformed inexperienced players like that one guy earlier in the thread, or just "defenders of GGG's honor" eternally feel that melee is okay as long as there are a couple builds or skills that can kinda sniff the ass of the meta. I disagree strongly.


Fortunately Neon has publicly acknowledged the need for melee buffs and called it a top tier priority so it doesn't matter if some people are running FUD and being the "merchants of doubt" about this issue any more. Neon can come riding in and MAYBE be "the melee messiah" LOL (seriously I'm writing this with a chuckle) sounds like a Metallica tune...

I know why melee is bad!

Its because templar use his left hand!

"

suszterpatt wrote:

Can't wait for Glacial Hammer to get another 8% damage buff. :D

8%...what is this Christmas? You will get 3% and that is if GGG is in a good mood. Can't have melee being too powerful now. It has totems to balance it all out.

"

sidtherat wrote:

is there a reason you pretend that damage values of these skills and archetype as a whole is not a problem?

you see 2300 STR Warpath build with Paradoxica dealing 50m damage - 'ye, melee good'

i see a 600pdps 1h barely scratching 5m with all marks checked in POB

on the same f.. skill. and that 600pdps weapon seems to costs more than ENTIRE stacker's gear (i know there is no limit with synth %attr implicits but that example had just ones coming from ring corruptions)


if your reaction to this is 'just play whats good' then.. ok I guess. in fact people do this - all mathil's innovative, 'nobody believed it possible' builds are XXX stackers when the skill choice is irrelevant, it is the flat damage from stacking that matters. and ofc - attr stacking also provides defenses, in heaps.

once you remove str/int/dex stacking, ES stacking (Ephemeral Edge/Energy Blade), faux melee (Molten Strike aka Nimis doubles my damage for free!) and stick to phys weapons - aka the choice that does not need to be best but it should at least work - you end up with 5m (unless it uses external source of flat damage: Rage, Trauma/Support) and locked out out of content

phys weapons are undertuned as f.. compared to various 'magic' stackers. white weapon with synt implicit + gear with some semi garbage rolls > any mirrored phys weapon that ever existed

this is a problem - content seems to be balanced without taking that into account

why i care? because if I need to do the stacking bs it means that we enter D3 build system when the character is the same, just swap the skill and 1-2 supports. how boring and small


this is not about skills, their mechanic or whatnot. ffs people are wiping the floor with - Boneshatter. vs bosses it is nothing but an autoattack - the epithomy of suck. but it deals damage, 2-3times more than next best option. and people do just fine - because the skill provides that what is missing: flat base damage. stuff that hurts melee players on a fundamental level - to reach big numbers you need scaling vectors and solid base values. scaling vectors are mostly universal - spells/minions share the same stuff - but the base for melee is garbage. it cannot end with parity and it doesnt. unless 'magic' creates good base from pair of stinking boots

For one, i can get more than 5 mio dps out of even a 400 pdps weapon, even disregarding Paradoxica and stuff. I do NOT consider strength stacking when judging melee DPS and frankly if 5 mio is all you can manage using a freaking 600 pdps weapon then that's a "build issue", big time.

That said, if your argument is that stat stacking and it's powerlevel is a problem relative to "normal" scaling methods then that's actually a valid point to make though i am not sure i agree given the large amount of investment needed to get decent dps out of strength stacking. But it's something i can somewhat relate to at least.

However, if that's your alley, then at least realize the fact that this isn't a melee problem. Tornadoshot prenerf, the skill you hailed as the best skill in the game, used stat stacking on the mid/high end in the form of omni.
Most spell builds use ES Stacking with energyblade, or manastacking with indigon/archemage or power/frenzy charge stacking to get the dps they have.

The only skills that get away with "lvl 20 base gem damage and some increase" which would be the equivalent to your "phys weapon + some increase" are corpse life based skills. Your average spell won't do shit like that and bow skills will do even less.

Honestly, the more i read your posts the more i get the feeling you aren't even talking about "melee", you just talk about a very tiny and specific subset of phys based melee that drops dozens of available scaling vectors just because.
Like did you seriously exclude rage as well? And it's got be phys based weapons, so elemental based ones are also "exceptions"? If you reduce it down that much then, yeah i agree with you. That kind of melee build is shit and does no damage but honestly, you reap what you sow. That's not a melee archetype issue anymore, it's an issue with your choices when you make a build.

I also don't agree with that from a variety/design perspective. If gems/base weapons had the amount of base damage where they could do 50+ mio dps without any other scaling vectors then that would limit build variety more than it helped because GGG would have to be super restrictive with additional vectors or damage would get completely ridiculous. Imo melee damage is not and should not be defined solely by the gem you use and the weapon. That would actually be D3 itemization. Scalingoptions aside from the gem/weapon should exist and be usable.

Personally i think GGG should loosen the access to decent midtier weapons by a lot, there are a bunch of affordable options still but the latest patch reduced the number again. If something should change it's the accessibility of good weapons early on, more usable uniques with high drop rates, easier crafting or heck make vendors useful by letting them sell decent magic bases with a tier 3 or so prefix.

"

alhazred70 wrote:

Fortunately Neon has publicly acknowledged the need for melee buffs and called it a top tier priority so it doesn't matter if some people are running FUD and being the "merchants of doubt" about this issue any more. Neon can come riding in and MAYBE be "the melee messiah" LOL (seriously I'm writing this with a chuckle) sounds like a Metallica tune...

I guess you mean Mark the game director of PoE?
I also heard Jonathan saying that melee is not in a good spot.

The thing im not sure about if melee ever gets a positive treatment it needs since one of the interviews where they talked about multipliers.
It was in reference to PoE2 and mf where loot should have a 1000 times multiplier between the average person and top end one. It was also mentioned that in PoE1 its far more than 1000 times.
The 1000 times was then disaggregated into mf as a stat, more powerful build, movementspeed/clear speed.

When builds are considered for such balance aspects in the game its natural that builds or in case of melee whole build types must be designed worse with flaws so it can fit into the equation.

I could be wrong ofc and we see next league the buffs we need for melee like totem buffs integrated into melee skills, additional strikes as default for strike skills, removal of attack speed penalties on gems.
I could also see more synergies happen with Fortify and melee.
Changes to Blood Magic in combination with life recoup or damage over time like Progenesis effects could make the unefficient south west of the skill tree more attractive.