If Borrowed Power is here to stay, my ONE REQUEST for GGG

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GusTheCrocodile wrote:

Clearly that's a risk they were okay with taking, or they wouldn't have taken it. They're people in control of their own actions, not robots or addicts, right

i think i am mostly in agreement with you except for this.

i am a PP. i have friends who are PP. we HATE that we now need to take risks not knowing if our efforts in a league can pay off.

we are not hardcore gamers. it takes us on average 1-3 days to hit maps. another 2-3 days to get to red tier. maybe a week or 2 later to unlock most of the atlas and getting our 6 links.

we never needed to take risks before sanctum. GGG never gave us a reason to worry about losing our power. all this changed with sanctum.

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exsea wrote:

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GusTheCrocodile wrote:

Clearly that's a risk they were okay with taking, or they wouldn't have taken it. They're people in control of their own actions, not robots or addicts, right

i think i am mostly in agreement with you except for this.

i am a PP. i have friends who are PP. we HATE that we now need to take risks not knowing if our efforts in a league can pay off.

You are a human being in control of your actions, and actions speak louder than words when it comes to showing who we are. By voluntarily taking the risk, you are showing that to be something you find acceptable. Please note the term being used: I'm not saying you're showing you love it, that you're excited about it, that you think it's ideal. But you accept it. You know there is no guarantee and you choose to continue, in that knowledge.

If it was not acceptable to you, then by definition, you would not accept it. This is a leisure activity, it's not something you need to do to stay alive. It's all optional.

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GusTheCrocodile wrote:

You are a human being in control of your actions, and actions speak louder than words when it comes to showing who we are. By voluntarily taking the risk, you are showing that to be something you find acceptable. Please note the term being used: I'm not saying you're showing you love it, that you're excited about it, that you think it's ideal. But you accept it. You know there is no guarantee and you choose to continue, in that knowledge.

If it was not acceptable to you, then by definition, you would not accept it. This is a leisure activity, it's not something you need to do to stay alive. It's all optional.

its interesting that you understand that you clarified the term by saying i may not love it, etc but that i just accept it.

then you must also understand that just because a person accepts something means they happy with it.

just as tujen would say sometimes when we haggle with him. he might not be happy with it but he accepts it.

in your original post you mentioned that "clearly thats a risk they were okay with taking, or they wouldnt have taken it". that kinda has a different ring to it no?

coz i am one of the PP's affected and i clearly am not okay with it. i m not happy with it. did i accept it. yes i did. with much dissatisfaction, hence why i post in the first place.

if you're ok with how things are, why would you bother commenting here anyway? it clearly doesnt effect you so why should your opinion matter? what are you trying to convince me?

i am unhappy with something, i complain to people (GGG) who could possibly make it better. and the best you can do is remind me i m actually ok with it? i accepted it willingly?

if you ask force me to eat stale bread or stale rice, of course i accept one over the other. i ll just choose the more acceptable outcome. would i be wrong to tell people that they were shitty options to begin with?

coz thats what i m doing. i m not happy with how things are. or have you never complained in your entire life and just accepted every single thing as is?

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exsea wrote:

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GusTheCrocodile wrote:

You are a human being in control of your actions, and actions speak louder than words when it comes to showing who we are. By voluntarily taking the risk, you are showing that to be something you find acceptable. Please note the term being used: I'm not saying you're showing you love it, that you're excited about it, that you think it's ideal. But you accept it. You know there is no guarantee and you choose to continue, in that knowledge.

If it was not acceptable to you, then by definition, you would not accept it. This is a leisure activity, it's not something you need to do to stay alive. It's all optional.

its interesting that you understand that you clarified the term by saying i may not love it, etc but that i just accept it.

then you must also understand that just because a person accepts something means they happy with it.

Yes, absolutely. Further, I understand that using a service doesn’t obligate you to be happy with every part of it. That’s fine. I don’t love that POE is built around the idea that trading is fun, for example. But there’s no POE built otherwise, so I play it anyway and take the good with the bad. I can’t excise the slices of the game I don’t like.

But a whole league? A whole league is optional at precisely that level. If you aren’t happy with the ‘risks’ of playing temporary leagues, you can excise them from your experience of the game. You keep speaking as if this is mandatory for you, like this analogy of being “forced” to eat food you don’t like. I’m just suggesting that you do have the option available to you to not do the thing you’re unhappy doing.

I have, at this point, well and truly said my piece on the matter though.

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exsea wrote:

if you're ok with how things are, why would you bother commenting here anyway? it clearly doesnt effect you so why should your opinion matter? what are you trying to convince me?

Well, I expect the likelihood that this would actually happen is exceedingly small, but if GGG started to rush their decisionmaking around what goes into the game long term and what doesn’t, just to adhere to your standards of “lateness”, then that could affect people other than ‘PPs’.

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GusTheCrocodile wrote:

Yes, absolutely. Further, I understand that using a service doesn’t obligate you to be happy with every part of it. That’s fine. I don’t love that POE is built around the idea that trading is fun, for example. But there’s no POE built otherwise, so I play it anyway and take the good with the bad. I can’t excise the slices of the game I don’t like.

But a whole league? A whole league is optional at precisely that level. If you aren’t happy with the ‘risks’ of playing temporary leagues, you can excise them from your experience of the game. You keep speaking as if this is mandatory for you, like this analogy of being “forced” to eat food you don’t like. I’m just suggesting that you do have the option available to you to not do the thing you’re unhappy doing.

I have, at this point, well and truly said my piece on the matter though.

understood. our opinions simply differ then. simply different people have different goals went playing the game.

and the way we play are different. you enjoy what you enjoy. i enjoy what i enjoy. the issue is after playing the game over 8-9 years they changed something at a fundamental level that they never did before. which was introduce borrowed power into leagues.

you've accepted it and i m guessing it doesnt affect you. we never had to take any risks before this and you keep saying it as tho it has been the norm since the begining of POE, which i would remind you it was not. it was never this way until sanctum.

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GusTheCrocodile wrote:

Well, I expect the likelihood that this would actually happen is exceedingly small, but if GGG started to rush their decisionmaking around what goes into the game long term and what doesn’t, just to adhere to your standards of “lateness”, then that could affect people other than ‘PPs’.

i actually agree with you on this. it is very unlikely that GGG would make any immediate change. but as a PP, i m in for the long game. not short term goals.

when you say that if GGG adheres to my request it would affect other people besides PP's, i would like to ask you, HOW?

PP's dislike borrowed power, they might skip a league if it was revealed beforrehand.

Non PP's what stake do they have? If it's borrowed power so what? they're not playing standard anyway, its a dead league for them.

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exsea wrote:

you keep saying it as tho it has been the norm since the begining of POE, which i would remind you it was not. it was never this way until sanctum.

We already had this discussion the other day. As far as either of us could recall, there has never been a guarantee that league content would stay. A lack of a guarantee is, by definition, a risk that it wouldn't stay.

The risk didn't end up turning into a negative outcome (for you) until Sanctum, perhaps, but that's not the same as the risk not existing. If you roll a pair of dice a over and over and it doesn't come up with a total score of 2 until the 14th time, that doesn't mean there was never a risk of rolling a 2 until the 14th time. It could have happened earlier, it just didn't. The risk was always there.

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exsea wrote:

when you say that if GGG adheres to my request it would affect other people besides PP's, i would like to ask you, HOW?

I was trying to suggest this by using the word "rush". Rushed decisions are more likely to be bad decisions. I wouldn't want poor material added to the game because the decision was rushed in order to make some announcement deadline, nor would I want good material rejected for that reason. I would always want all decisions to be made in good time, taking all the relevant information into account (which may quite reasonably include things that can only be learned by launching the league, not before).

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GusTheCrocodile wrote:

We already had this discussion the other day. As far as either of us could recall, there has never been a guarantee that league content would stay. A lack of a guarantee is, by definition, a risk that it wouldn't stay.

The risk didn't end up turning into a negative outcome (for you) until Sanctum, perhaps, but that's not the same as the risk not existing. If you roll a pair of dice a over and over and it doesn't come up with a total score of 2 until the 14th time, that doesn't mean there was never a risk of rolling a 2 until the 14th time. It could have happened earlier, it just didn't. The risk was always there.

ah, if you're using the previous discussion i would kindly point out that for the sake of making a proper discussion, we need to be on the same page. as of such i have made my own definitions as stated in the first post of this thread.

i will agree that league content never was guaranteed to stay. but by my definition, we always got to keep all our power gained all up until sanctum.

items such as seeds, leaguestones etc logically are expected to poof by the end of a league as we rarely if ever have a league mechanic go core right after. however all gear that we earned during the league were something we got to keep. non of our enchants were poofed, not even our crucible trees.

this is why i keep hammering on saying that it was not always this way. the risk that you mentioned to me was non existent.

as much as i hate it, i cannot and will not find any guarantee that GGG gave towards the player base on letting us keep our items. which leads me to a frustrating situation where i cannot "prove" there ever was a guarantee. but on the flipside, having no guarantee doesnt mean that it has always been a dice roll. neither of us can prove each other wrong unless we can find solid evidence on the matter. to put it in your terms, i've been rolling double sixes for all leagues except sanctum and affliction. it would definitely cause people to reason that sanctum and affliction are the exception.

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GusTheCrocodile wrote:

]I was trying to suggest this by using the word "rush". Rushed decisions are more likely to be bad decisions. I wouldn't want poor material added to the game because the decision was rushed in order to make some announcement deadline, nor would I want good material rejected for that reason. I would always want all decisions to be made in good time, taking all the relevant information into account (which may quite reasonably include things that can only be learned by launching the league, not before).

i agree with you that anything rushed would be bad. it affects everyone. but even so, if in doubt the devs could just plainly make a decision to make the temp league utilizing borrowed power and that would cut off any stress on the devs.

after all standard enjoyers are obviously not the focus of ggg (no sarcasm towards you, if any its a fact due to how ggg treats standard)

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exsea wrote:

as of such i have made my own definitions as stated in the first post of this thread.

Yes, I read your post.

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exsea wrote:

we always got to keep all our power gained all up until sanctum.

There is no need to repeat yourself, this remains not in dispute.

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exsea wrote:

i cannot and will not find any guarantee that GGG gave towards the player base on letting us keep our items.

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exsea wrote:

the risk that you mentioned to me was non existent

These two statements remain in opposition.

Best of luck.

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Lyutsifer665 wrote:

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exsea wrote:

GGG should be upfront and tell players if the leagues powers are borrowed or not. As early as possible

wont happen. if people knew then a lot of them wouldnt play the league. GGG wants as many players as possible.

And this by itself is an additional problem with Borrowed power, not wanting to tell people until after the league will make them feel cheated.

This is a non controversial statement I hope. If someone wants to disagree then just go read the "what will happen to Affliction" thread. Or the Sanctum one where even thought they were up front about that one, people were still pissed off because they hadn't heard it.

Anyway back to the point: By not telling us up front GGG is setting themselves up to be bad faith game designers like Blizzard, or appear to be.

OR they tell us up front in an attempt to maintain their standing as a well loved game developer that tries to be transparent and communicative in something like the 99% percentile of Game dev. And by telling us they take a marketing hype hit.

Right now my default expectation is future leagues are disposable content from now on. And I don';t mean disposable in that the items wont be in standard like Relics and Charms/Tinctures... To me Crucible was also obviously Borrowed power disposable content despite that the trees exist in standard. I really loved Crucible, haven't played all 3+ months of a league in YEARS.

My biggest problem is something cool and build enabling from a new league USED TO HAVE A SOLID CHANCE TO EXIST INTO THE FUTURE LEAGUES.

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exsea wrote:

GGG should be upfront and tell players if the leagues powers are borrowed or not. As early as possible

They absolutely should not. I want them to have the freedom of evaluating and being able to make last minute decisions.