Can GGG ever get over its speed fetish?

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Miská wrote:

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gibbousmoon wrote:

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Kazang wrote:

Getting rid of the stupid timers (or just making them less restrictive if you insist on having them) wouldn't hurt the game for those that like the zoom-zoom playstyle, they still get the benefits of clearing faster. But those that don't enjoy that would not be forced to play that way or away from the game.

This is the exact point I was making. Thanks for actually getting it.

...unlike about 80% of the posters in here.

The irony is, my arc witch isn't even all that powerful. She just excels at timed league content so much better than safer builds because she's a glass cannon and clears everything except bosses really really fast.

This is just wishful thinking honestly. Take legion for example. If they would allow no times they will HAVE to reduce rewards, so it will affect people that are playing efficient too. Legion is also a perfect example of what happens when a bigger portion of the playerbase gets acces to alot more loot. Most items become worthless.

That said though, I hate timers too. Even though they don't affect me that much. I enjoy playing slower builds aswell, and timers just pigeon hole people into only a certain playstyle.
It's time GGG finds a different way of ensuring encounters feel worth your time and at the same time allow people with slower builds to enjoy them too.

You make some good points, Miská, but I have to disagree with this part:

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If they would allow no timers they will HAVE to reduce rewards.

There are multiple creative ways to balance rewards without timers. Just shooting from the hip here:

-Limit the number of monsters which can be tagged. Force players to choose.

-Don't limit the number, but limit the color, and color-code monsters by reward type. The first color that is tagged is the only color that can subsequently be tagged.

-Make certain monsters practically unkillable (with negligible rewards) to force players to tag selectively.

Those are the first 3 ideas I pulled out of my ass, with minimal thought. Try not to come down hard on me for any issues you see with them.

In any case, it should go without saying that any of the above systems would permit GGG to make individual monsters MORE rewarding, because of limitations on tagging.

Furthermore, zoom-zoom builds would still dominate the game, because of the nature of an ARPG. Brainless clearspeed junkies will still get their fix.

See? Is it really that hard to design a balanced-yet-challenging league without relying on timers?

Someone earlier in this thread called timers an example of lazy design. I couldn't agree more.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but I notice that GGG doesn't use any enrage timers in their game (unlike D3). Unless I am mistaken. I assume that this is because they also recognize that it is lazy (and bad) design.

League timers have almost the exact same flaws.

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gibbousmoon wrote:

You make some good points, Miská, but I have to disagree with this part:

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If they would allow no timers they will HAVE to reduce rewards.

There are multiple creative ways to balance rewards without timers. Just shooting from the hip here:

-Limit the number of monsters which can be tagged. Force players to choose.

-Don't limit the number, but limit the color, and color-code monsters by reward type. The first color that is tagged is the only color that can subsequently be tagged.

-Make certain monsters practically unkillable (with negligible rewards) to force players to tag selectively.

Those are the first 3 ideas I pulled out of my ass, with minimal thought. Try not to come down hard on me for any issues you see with them.

In any case, it should go without saying that any of the above systems would permit GGG to make individual monsters MORE rewarding, because of limitations on tagging.

Furthermore, zoom-zoom builds would still dominate the game, because of the nature of an ARPG. Brainless clearspeed junkies will still get their fix.

See? Is it really that hard to design a balanced-yet-challenging league without relying on timers?

Someone earlier in this thread called timers an example of lazy design. I couldn't agree more.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but I notice that GGG doesn't use any enrage timers in their game (unlike D3). Unless I am mistaken. I assume that this is because they also recognize that it is lazy (and bad) design.

League timers have almost the exact same flaws.

Sure, but all those ideas do affect speed runners too. You are not actually solving the issue for all players, you are limited speed by force and then pretend it's a more even playground.

The reason I say they will have to reduce rewards, is coming from a concept of keeping it as it is right now. Where nobody is limited. Because honestly I dislike silly limits like you proposed, as much or even more then timers.

My guess is, they do it the way they do, is to create a vacuum for 24/7 streamers to show off insane content, so casual players who then get exited. You create a fictional goal for everyone not able to do what they do. And for the ones that do? Well they are capable of reaping insane rewards.

Timers are annoying, no doubt. But they have benefits that I think GGG is using to their advantage. They can put insane rewards behind such a tight spot that only a few select can reach it.

I honestly don't have the answer for this whole timer problem. But I assume GGG has thought about this a lot. Threads pop up every 'timer' league. I'm betting it's not that easy to switch to something less and keep ALL player levels engaged.

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Miská wrote:

Sure, but all those ideas do affect speed runners too.

They affect them, but they don't cripple them. Unlike the 75%+ of builds which are crippled.

Speed runners are still at a massive advantage, both intrinsically (as always) and in league mechanics which don't involve timers.

The incentives you posit for GGG to allow speed runners to dominate (exciting the hoi polloi) are not likely to change much.

Diminishing returns is relevant, I think: Giving speed runners an even greater advantage is not increasing the excitement you talk about to a proportionate extent.

It is, however, hurting the game in many other, fundamental, ways.

Even if the game is as zero-sum as you imply, it seems evident based on both theory and practical experience (the rotating dominance of a small set of builds over the past few years) that going out of your way as a dev to require a speed meta does far more damage than good to a game.

Unless, of course, you are designing around false choices and noobtraps, in order to make "informed" players feel superior to the great unwashed "uninformed" players. But that's just shit design from the get-go, full stop. Artificial superiority is only a temporary phenomenon.

Not denying it's good business, mind you. Keep moving the goalposts around, let the sheeple chase them. But it's shit game design, because the challenges are not intrinsic but rather based on deception. And deception which is not detected will almost always make for superior business outcomes. Cynical but true.

Am I being overly bitter? Someone convince me I am wrong so I can be less bitter, please. :)

This is getting stupid. You dont need to play speed meta to enjoy content. You need GOOD BUILD, even a slower one will do fine. You want BAD BUILDS to work. How hard is it to target mobs with icons? Even with timers you can unlock 90% without any problem with good build. No builds are crippled, whats crippled is your ability to enjoy game and not look what 0.1% do.

Look at somebody actually good at the game like Octavian, Mathil or Ziz. Look how many build they make that can destroy every piece of content there is. Hell Quin was doing fkn cleave bleed build and was doing great.

You spit bullshit "bad design this", "noob traps" etc without understanding that you are the problem here. Design is not bad just because its different then what you want. Judging by player numbers they made a good choice and no this few of you that dont like "zoom zoom" builds are not relevant.

Again, timers are the only way they can force you to upgrade. There is no mechanical challenge or puzzles to solve. There are only stats that matter. This is game about killing monsters, not tanking them and every build that cant do it is just plain bad and nothing you say will change that. Take it or leave it.

Dude you are just bored of the game and are looking for a reasons to complain and its blatantly obvious.

The emblem fights are just designed in a wrong way.

How I would design them?

You put your emblems in the map device and spawn a portal to the battlefield. There the player has to fight all armies at the same time. The number of enemies on the battlefield is set and there is no way to reset the encounter. As soon as you have slain everything, you collect your loot and leave the battlefield.

This way slow and fast builds can get the same return per battlefield map. Now the fast builds will still earn more per hour as they can run more maps in a similar time frame. But the cost of those emblems wouldn't be determined anymore by maximum loot hh/aurabot parties.

Yes, remove the only unique mechanic just because you refuse to group up. Thats the easiest way to get better loot there with no investment, just get a party. You dont want to? Its on you.

so what you want is an unkillable character that requires no thinking at all and who can clear entire screens?

or do uou just want all builds to be slow?

melee has been buffed alot, you just need to make you character not so trash.

This isnt speed meta. Its headhunters meta. Always was always will be.
The difference in clear without it and with it is too vast. (not looking at the other jewel)

Hate speed meta and dont like super punished all who not fast enough or even little slow

I also prefer slow gameplay. My favorite class is classic zombie/skele necro. Always full clear maps, open all chests and boulder. Have huge problems with incursion, legion, syndicate lab, etc.