So I wanted to see what the fuss was about melee..

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postrach_myszy wrote:

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Aynix wrote:

Only people who do Uber Elder care about damage/defense. Most people care about speed.

Hmm... I'm Uber Elder killer (at least two times per day) and actually I have to care about speed too. From my point of view it looks like this:
To kill Uber Elder I have to do 8 T16 maps first. Because of Syndicate clearing of each map take me 3 minutes in case of "ordinary guardian" and 3:45-4 min in case of Elder guardian, due to their phases. Without syndicate (and necessity to decide, what to do with defeated members) One T16 take me accordingly 1:45-2 minutes, including boss fight and ~3 minutes when it comes to Guardian map. It means, full "Uber Elder run" without Uber Elder killing, which is quite fast take me at least 28 minutes, but that’s only theory, as in fact there is much things which can slow me down, like Incursion or Zana's mission on map.

So average run is probably something around 35 minutes. And then I have to spawn him again – It takes from 0 minutes (Shapers influence appears in map centre after completing first map) to even 1 hour, when speed is essential. If I would like to do such things with melee char… well, I couldn’t do it, as currency from watcher’s eye is important source of my incomes, without them I couldn’t equip my chars so well.

Well you can run pretty fast on a 2attack speed foil or claw. And then you can use some pseudo melee skill to clear pretty much as fast as anything. But its less reliable i do have to agree,but dont tell me a reaver with a 2.0+ aps weapon cannot clear a t16/uberelder as fast as whatever you may name. You could even just pop an inpulsa and make shit pop and armor switch on boss for flurry or w/e. Ive done it,hardcore wise... But yeah melee is shit. Its doable but its masochist. Once you play range or caster it feels just like a waste with most of melee.

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Aynix wrote:

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innervation wrote:

There are only two aspects to the game in which inferior/superior matters: damage and defense.

You are wrong. There is also SPEED and UTILITY. Why do you think Pathfinder is most popular ascendency for a long time? Because not only it one of the fastest ascendency, it also has a lot of utility.
Only people who do Uber Elder care about damage/defense. Most people care about speed.

Speed isn't competing with damage/defense as a choice. Neither is utility. Both of those things can be gained with next to no sacrifice to damage/defense.

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TheFrostmourne wrote:

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Shagsbeard wrote:

Play the game for fun and none of that matters.

^ this tbh

"Fun" is subjective.

"Fun" for me, is theory crafting, creating an idea of a character - and executing that idea. Progressing a character, make the character as strong as he can be. KNOWING you're limiting/handicapping yourself just by choosing a melee character, removes some of this "fun".

"Fun" for A LOT of people, is making an efficient endgame character. A melee character will never be as efficient as its counterpart.

"Fun" for a lot of people, is competing. Is melee compatible? Competitive viable?

"Fun" for a lot of people, is making the strongest character they've ever made. Will that be a melee character?

"Fun" for a lot of people, is making their character as close to a God as possible. Which class/archetype/play style is most likely to reach this state?

"Fun" for a lot of people, is ambition. If you have ambitions, melee isn't the first pick on the drawing board.

It's MORE than possible to make melee as a WHOLE as strong as the alternatives. ANYONE claiming it's impossible, are either blind or unable to think a single nano meter outside the box. No matter how you turn the wheels, playing melee would be more "fun" knowing you're playing a class/archetype that is as strong as the alternatives.

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Shagsbeard wrote:

That or play a game where your choices don't matter as much. You can play dozens of games were every choice you make only provides a slightly different path through the game, but all are assured victory in the end.

Choices don’t matter if there are only a few correct choices and everyone knows what they are. Having purposefully bad options doesn’t increase the value of the good ones; only the challenges the player confronts do that.

Right now whatever double-digit % of the options available to players just sit there and rot. Many of them are melee-related, hence the focus on that playstyle in all these threads. This status quo does indeed harm the game, as limited options = boring gameplay league after league.

Balance matters. It’s impossible and undesirable for it to be perfect, but it can’t be abandoned entirely either. Nobody wants to play a game that has an “I win” button, let alone many “I lose” buttons, couched inside the fraudulent semblence of complex gameplay. Achievements are meaningless under those circumstances.

Besides, on a basic level people just want to play melee and not feel punished for it. What’s so wrong about GGG putting resources into meeting that very reasonable want? Melee exists in this videogame; therefore it should be entertaining to play.

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innervation wrote:

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Aynix wrote:

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innervation wrote:

There are only two aspects to the game in which inferior/superior matters: damage and defense.

You are wrong. There is also SPEED and UTILITY. Why do you think Pathfinder is most popular ascendency for a long time? Because not only it one of the fastest ascendency, it also has a lot of utility.
Only people who do Uber Elder care about damage/defense. Most people care about speed.

Speed isn't competing with damage/defense as a choice. Neither is utility. Both of those things can be gained with next to no sacrifice to damage/defense.

Here is where you are wrong. If person is doing build which will never try to kill Uber Elder or other boss (you do boss killer for that) speed is most important. You dont give a shit about defense or damage because everything is exploding after 1 hit anyway. The only thing that matters is speed. How fast you can run/use movement skill is the only thing that limits your clear speed.