How can GGG encourage group play while restricting abuse? (or is leeching fine?)

@Lo4f:

I've always assumed this game is about dps glass cannon. If you played single player, tanky build will not get you anywhere due to low kill speed and generally boring. The whole point of the game is try to get as much damage as possible while minimizing resources spending on not dying. Hardcore league is on the reverse though, but you still need to output enough damage to stop mobs from constantly damaging you.

The only place tanky build can contribute is in a party. The mechanics promote this: no damage increase: tanky can still tank and not die, hp increase: friends who do not have to tank can dish out damage. The only loot system is what needs fixing though, and they had plans for it.

And some note: flask do refill even though you do not deal the killing blow, its just slower.

In all of this, I feel the only compromise is to allow 1 person to choose the level of difficulty he wants for the instance.

Meaning, that 1 person gets the xp he would get for having 6 people there; however, he would only get what is calculated for 1 person out of those 6. They would not get 6 people's worth of xp. The drop rate the same.

I think it's not fair to have solo players not have the ability to create a tougher instance.

"

Progammer wrote:

@Lo4f:

I've always assumed this game is about dps glass cannon. If you played single player, tanky build will not get you anywhere due to low kill speed and generally boring. The whole point of the game is try to get as much damage as possible while minimizing resources spending on not dying. Hardcore league is on the reverse though, but you still need to output enough damage to stop mobs from constantly damaging you.

The only place tanky build can contribute is in a party. The mechanics promote this: no damage increase: tanky can still tank and not die, hp increase: friends who do not have to tank can dish out damage. The only loot system is what needs fixing though, and they had plans for it.

And some note: flask do refill even though you do not deal the killing blow, its just slower.

Agree with this, tanky builds have always been susbstandard in all ARPGs. The best builds are on the edge of glass cannon territory. Enough HP/Def to not get one shotted but enough DPS to clear a screens worth of monsters in a few seconds.

Thats not to say people shouldnt be able to play however they want, but tanky builds aren't really worthwhile in APRGs in my view. The group dynamic (holy trinity) just isn't important or needed in the same way as an MMO, which is designed for group play and discourages solo play. Here solo and group are equally viable, so there just isnt a need for tanks or support builds really.

The +50% quantity bonus per party member is insane and should be removed or nerfed heavily.
Why bother with looking for +quality gear when you can find few leechers and get 250% without compromising your DPS?

"

lazyman75 wrote:

The +50% quantity bonus per party member is insane and should be removed or nerfed heavily.
Why bother with looking for +quality gear when you can find few leechers and get 250% without compromising your DPS?

i agree with this, also i would rather see the people in the party having to contribute instead of just standing there getting free stuff

@RodHull - It took me a while to find the quote emphasizing defensive builds:

"

Chris wrote:

In Beta releases up to 0.9.6, there is a disparity between high level damage output and high level defensiveness. We're working to give players opportunities to become substantially more defensive.

because it was hiding in the PvP thread.

Mention in global chat that you are 'looking for a tank' and the ridicule begins. The build options are already in place, but the content and current party mechanics will punish players choosing to go the defensive route. Maybe tanking will be a rewarding option for solo and group play in the future (more than just HC).

"

lazyman75 wrote:

The +50% quantity bonus per party member is insane and should be removed or nerfed heavily.
Why bother with looking for +quantity gear when you can find few leechers and get 250% without compromising your DPS?

That's the problem. It is insane when you are the only one fighting and looting. However, if the party is actually fighting and looting together the bonus makes sense.

Cutting the quantity buff is not the answer since that would remove the only benefit to grouping besides having some company.

Monsters IA and general tactical behaviours could really, if well done, change this sad fact (no real need for close combat fighters/tank) .

Mobs didn't get the proper tools to deal with fast kiting glass canon characters.

for instance : archers/casters mobs are always slow in positioning themselves, they fire from the fartest angle so when you fast kite you can easily be out of range for theim to land precise shots.

leap attack are slow to land you can get out of the way...

Mobs rarely get some usefull active skills to effectively get close to ranged characters:

give some of them Flicker strike or an adequate shield charge (ram charge, or whatever) and the gameplay will have to be really different!
full offensive kiting characters must have the chill and sometimes, (and i don't speak here for the early game seting but for an IA offensive boost toward the "end gameplay") must feel the need to hide behind beefy characters.
building a frail character must have some drawbacks!

another point is that even in group play, mobs don't have a definitive feeling of aggro/dangerous characters (the one in the back who do "all" the major killing), they really often only aggro the closest character...

If their aggro was turned toward biggest dps dealers, the need of Enduring cry/Immortal Call, beefy tank could be real.

Personaly, I want to group, I'm playing online games for this only, I want big heroic group fights against evil beings... i don't want to sit back and gain xp, I've done enough Baal run.....

If the IA/mobs skills, aggro management stay as they are, there'll be leech, there'll be glass canon's dominating all the "endgame".

The way mobs are managing the more damaging/fleing oponents is the ultimate tool for encouraging group playing.

How about this:

Monsters gain +50% increased quantity for each player damaging them after the first (only applies once per player per monster).

Example:

Three player party. One guy goes off and doesn't wait for the others, starts killing mobs. Only one player in the group damages them before they die, so no quantity bonus applied (however the monster difficulty was scaled up due to the other players being in the same map).

Later, the party engages a unique. Each player damages it and the full party bonus of +100% quantity is applied.

First, this would cut out all lucky hits with critical strikes (all one-shots)...
and further, even beside this, it would demand to attack the same monster for all involved players to take effect: to split up and fight against different monsters parallel - useless. (maybe a group of foes, or a boss and a archer and some melees...)

"

__Z__ wrote:

Mobs didn't get the proper tools to deal with fast kiting glass canon characters.

Diagree totally with this. Trust me as a level 61 ranger I can assure you there is nothing more deadly to me than a pack of magic archer monsters. I either have to run or stun lock them to death in seconds to prevent death.

But thats the current problem with range/melee. The only thing as a ranged character that offers any real challenge to me is other ranged monsters.

It should be the opposite way around. So melee characters should find it easy to kill other melee monsters but struggle VS ranged, where as ranged characters should struggle against melee monsters but find it easy VS ranged monsters.

That way there is a purpose for example for my ranger to team with a tank and vice versa. Where as currently the only thing that bothers/hinders me is ranged mobs and a melee toon is no better equipped to deal with them than I am.