How can GGG encourage group play while restricting abuse? (or is leeching fine?)
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Some background for those unaware of the current system and plans:
Spoiler
Mechanics:
" Plans for public party: " Plans for Endgame: " From the manifesto entries it sounds like the public party system will make it easier for item farmers and leeches to hook up. The changes to make boss farming worthwhile and challenging would not restrict leechers from standing at the entrance and then running through to the next level after a farmer has cleared the path. The plans to add challenge selection for players who have built extremely powerful characters would offer specific options based on the number of leeches one acquired. Only one leech available -> pick hardest option (this system would be based on risk vs. reward I assume), found three leeches -> choose easier content. The current party mechanics reward both leecher and farmer without requiring either to 'jump through hoops'. The leech just stands by a portal gaining experience, while the farmer gains +50% item quantity for each leech he acquires. If a restriction such as: "Players have to stay within a certain proximity to gain positive party bonuses, but the negative party effects apply regardless" was implemented to curb afk leechers, would this harm genuine party play? (just an example, not that it would stop leeching) Can GGG reward legitimate group players and restrict abuse of leeching in some way- or is the farmer/leecher relationship not actually abusing party mechanics and recognized as a fair trade? *edit* Proposed solution:
Spoiler
Effect on loot
Monsters gain +50% increased quantity for each player damaging them after the first (only applies once per player per monster). So a party of three will see twice as many drops as a lone character when they work together. It makes sense to me that players would cooperate to achieve their goals while partied up. This would also place everyone in close proximity to fight over FFA loot (since they were all attacking the same enemies to increase quantity). Changing the quantity bonus to depend on participation would encourage coordination while in a party, and at the same time eliminate the abusive leeching situation. Last edited by Lo4f#2652 on Feb 24, 2012, 1:45:53 PM
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I'm curious why this would be an issue at all for anyone not in the particular instance. Honestly, how does player X and Y having a symbiotic relationship where each gets what they desire while affecting no one else anywhere constitute any problem?
I see no reason the developers have to place artificial restrictions on player choice. To what end? Satisfy a group of people who must spend their free time peeking in their neighbor's windows? Off we go down the road of an arms race between people who want to get their umpteenth character to X level (for example), and control obsessed developers? There is no sub, no real competition outside HC as should be. I don't see the benefit of opening this can of worms to start a problem that currently doesn't exist. Your last sentence is correct in my opinion, as is my whole post of course. Console loot filter for POE2 Please!
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From my view, i think the idea is fairly balanced, The monster will have more HP with more ppl in the party, requiring the farmer to spend more time to kill. If balanced well, he should get the same amount of item as another person farming alone in the same period of time.
In another aspect, if you have uber gear that overkill chaos mobs, it is a good idea to have a slightly harder chaos where you, as a farmer, is being rewarded for having higher dps than standard (which will be wasted farming chaos alone) For anything the leaching xp need to be reduced, but the low lvl penalty formula has already done the job. Edit: for an example of such mechanics in the game, if your 6 linked spell is overkilling all mobs, you would swap out 1 for rarity or quantity gem. For a leaching farm, that spell will not net you the same kill speed -> less quantity, forcing you to swap the gem back in. Unviable build tester. Fuse mechanics: http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/21503 95% Crit Build Without Charges [0.10.1c]: http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/172438 Last edited by Progammer#5080 on Feb 22, 2012, 9:21:22 PM
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The current state of chaos leech sucks. I absolutely hate trying to get a decent group of leechers which doesn't run around ninjaing my loot or get in the way ( heck, I even encourage people to browse the web and stay at freaking portal ). But, I think grouping should always be a net win, you should absolutely not be punished for grouping ( which is quite common in lesser games ). One cheap solution is to remove the need for unknown leechers ( ie, /players ), and keep the current system largely intact.
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"One issue is that player X doesn't need player Y to use the party mechanics in his favor. By providing his own leeches (alternate accounts) he is increasing wealth accumulation with no trade off. " Agreed, I think that's the idea with players being able to choose their desired difficulty mentioned in the plans for endgame. " The "new system will offer greater control of how challenging the players want it to be" is addressing the /players issue raised last month. " Definitely, in a MMO grouping should be encouraged and not less efficient than soloing. But does it make sense to be rewarded for 'grouping' while not actually working as a group? | |
" Still doesnt invalidate my points. If he is using his alternate account, he still need to have a better kill speed than doing it alone to gain any advantage. If he's doing the same amount of damage, he will farm slower. I guess this is directly the /player situation in D2, just without setting up an alternate account Unviable build tester.
Fuse mechanics: http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/21503 95% Crit Build Without Charges [0.10.1c]: http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/172438 |
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@Progammer - I agree with your points about killspeed being a big factor. I assume anyone using leechers to increase drops would have adequate dps to make it worth their while. If you one-shot solo mobs might as well use that overkill for more drops by adding leechers.
The changes to end game mentioned in the manifesto would provide an alternate method of increasing difficulty to meet your specific build/gear, but alter nothing about the party mechanics that enable glass cannons to support leeches. GGG's ffa loot philosophy alone is enough to discourage legitimate group play between strangers. Add to this some of the existing party mechanics: *Your flasks don't refill unless you land a killing blow, meaning someone else is not filling up (think about how annoying it would be 'partying' with your own zombies if their kills did not refill your flask). negative - defensive and balanced builds positive - glass cannon *Monster health increases for each party member. negative - defensive and balanced builds positive - glass cannon *Monster damage output remains the same as you add party members. negative - defensive and balanced builds (opportunity cost, don't really need that extra defense) positive - glass cannon builds and what you end up with is a game that favors pure damage builds that can solo farm full party maps. Why would these able players want to split that extra loot with a tank they don't even need? Would increasing risk with added party members (ex. monster damage, additional auras) praise cooperative group play and deter using leechers (too much risk for a glass cannon)? | |
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double post ><
Last edited by Lo4f#2652 on Feb 23, 2012, 4:19:54 PM
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Punishing leechers would go a long way in keeping the game's economy stable. Part of the reason why Diablo 2's economy went to hell was due to the fact that people learned to effectively level in that game.
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Pehaps, In the cash store, they could sell rocks that increase the difficulty of the zone by +1 ,+2 person ect, and reduce leeching and bring up cash flow.
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