Thoughts on Traps, Mines and Saboteur

Update 25.07.2017

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kahzin wrote:

Tinkerskin! It's definetly a step in the right direction. It offers alot of things I have been asking for in this thread. I really hope that GGG will follow a similar design if they choose to rework the Saboteur. To be honest this new Body Armour seems to offer more than the entire Saboteur Ascendency for many builds. Here's what I'd like to see next:

-Remove Clever Construction. Traps and Mines should inheritly be indestructable for 5 seconds after placement.

-Remove Trap and Mine arming time. It's a stat that you cannot reliably scale and it's very disrupting for the general playstyle.

-Saboteur's Chain Reaction should be a keynode. It is the only reason right now to evern play a Saboteur. Making it a keynode would open up the opportunity to completely rework the Saboteur. It would also allow other classes to play Trap builds.

-Mines should be able to be triggered by enemies. At least give us a choice here, an item or some sort of passive node. Playing Mines would be so much more smooth.

It is no secret that playing Traps and Mines in PoE feels clunky and can be very frustrating most of the time. In my opinion the reason behind it is that Traps and Mines have been introduced into the game during the open beta but havn't had major improvements since then. Even the visual design looks outdated and is certainly not on par with more recent skills introduced by GGG.

Let's talk about some QoL stuff first. Alot of suggestions have been made regarding Traps and Mines and I can't understand why one of those, probably the most commonly asked improvement, hasn't been implemented already. Namely placing Mines at your character's position, not your mouse cursor's position. This is probably the most frustrating thing about playing Mines, even though there are workarounds to help out.

Next on the list is Clever Construction and Volatile Mines. I don't see a reason why those aren't build in to the skills inherently. Whenever you want to play a Trap/Mine build you are obligated to take these keynodes. And I really can't help but question the design perspective here. Why would you introduce a skill to the game, but make it severly worse if you don't pick up a certain node from the tree? In my opinion a skill should inherently feel good and rewarding to use, while investing in said skill with support gems, gear and passive points should make it feel even better. Bringing a skill to the game and cripple it doesn't feel right.

Trap and Mine arming time should be removed from the game. If you have ever played a Trap or Mine build you'll probably have come to a point where you noticed that something about Traps and Mines feels somewhat unresponeive. Most of the time you can't really put your finger on what it is that makes it feel clunky. I think Trap and especially Mine arming time are two mechanics that are definetly helping to create that overall clunky feeling. Maybe I'm missing something here but again I can't really see a reason why those exist in the first place. We are already bound to Trap throwing and Mine laying speed, so why add another instance of delay? Furtheremore, the Saboteur's Demolitions Specialist keynode is the only way to scale Mine arming speed. It strikes me as odd that there are mechanics tied to a skill that directly influence your user experience that are not (or hardly) scalable.

This one is a bit tricky since people's opinions vary alot on it. Having to detonate Mines manually sounds interesting in theory. In practice it is a major annoyance, at least in my opinion. Personally I havn't encountered a situation where autamated mine detonation wouldn't have been more comfortable. Honestly, at the end of the day you want to play a skill that feel good to use, feels right. And always having to spam that detonation button doesn't feel right.

Moving on to the Saboteur and why it is not working as it is. I've read alot of suggestions on how to fix the Sabotuer, but to be perfectly honest I don't think that any of those ideas would have worked in the long run. Personally I think that the problem is that the Saboteur doesn't cover the weaknesses of Trap and Mine builds. I have to elaborate on that a bit:
Traps and Mines are a trade-off mechanic. You could cast a spell yourself, which has it's advantages, like being able to scale cast speed, get life and mana leech and trigger on kill effects. It also has the disadvantage of dealing with damage reflection. Using a Trap or a Mine will bring the advantage of dealing more damage (at least per skill usage) and not having to worry about damage reflection. There are certainly more advantages and disadvantages to both sides, but the point is that using Traps and Mines is a trade-off. It is also important to realize that Traps and Mines are different in degree, not in kind. It's a matter of how much you want to trade. Playing Mines is alot more risky than playing Traps, but deals even more damage.
Now, the problem with the Saboteur Ascendency class is that it doesn't really cover any of those disadvantages. Generating and keeping up Power and Frenzy charges is still a major struggle with most Trap and Mine builds. Regaining Life and Mana is still as hard as it ever was. And there are no extra defensive layers added so playing with Mines is still too much of a risk for the rewards.
Also, there's no seperation between playing crit or non crit, physical or elemental Trap and Mine builds. It's even worse, if you are playing Traps you are incentivised to use Cluster Traps. Every Trap build that doesn't just spam loads of Traps gains nothing noteworthy from the Saboteur, leaving skills like Firetrap behind.
All in all the Saboteur pressures the player into a specific playstyle, but doesn't even offer anything noteworthy to support this playstyle and cover it's weaknesses. Yes, there is Cain Reaction - but this only covers a little part of all the different Trap playstyles.

Anyways, if anyone actaully made it to this point: First, thank you for reading my thoughts. Feel free to let me know what you think and I'll promise to read it and carefully think about it.
You may have noticed that there are basically no worked out suggestions in this wall of text. And that if for a reason. Even though I do have alot of suggestions in mind I think it's alot more important to discuss the problems first and find a common ground. Also, if I would have added those Suggestions this wall of text may have been twice as long. And I'm pretty sure I would have lost even the most fanatic Trap and Mine lover somewhere in those lines then. I might write those suggestions up at some point, but to be perfectly honest I'm not expecting alot of interest in this thread in the first place. We'll see! :)

well.. i think you are downplaying (or undervaluating) one thing about traps and mines: you can pre-load the damage. pre-loading damage is the reason why we have to load up our Vaal skills and certain bosses (Izaro!) cannot be cheesed this way

just HOW strong pre-loading damage is should be understood from the 'mine bladefall cheeze' combo that plagued us for 3 consecutive leagues (And is still strong - albeit the targeting change nerfed that a bit)

i think all the non-QoL aspects of mines and traps are there to counterbalance this a bit. same with trap cooldowns (3 charges per skill).

traps and mines without a negative QoL there and there are simply stronger spells. sadly the realm where GGG design can affect things is quite shallow - there is no stealth in this game, no surprise etc. our traps are grenades in fact and our mines are traps. with a radio detonation.


on the detonation: if you can automate it then you are basically playing self cast. it is a drawback (and for me - more of a pro as i can clear the volatiles and tackle essences on my terms when i have a control over where my mines go off) of mine playstyle.


one +111 howevers: mine placement. i havent heard a single reason (no matter how weird) WHY ggg changed it. the 'numlock trick' solves that, but it is terribad shot-ones-foot move on ggg side. WHY?

Saboteur.. he is a cool class. his 'fault' is that he is a specialised to the extreme. mines and traps. nothing more. and the choices are already pre-made. i highly value the 4 point blind path so for me the tree is already decided when i start a miner or trapper: 4 damage nodes, 4 blind nodes. there is 0 choice.

i like the bonuses Sabo give me, i can even accept the one-dimensional aspect of the class but there being 0 choice? not a fan. it is almost bad as with the Slayer where there are 4 auto-picks..


arming time - remove it. it is a convoluted mechanic that does not fit into the streamlined and (sadly) shallower with each patch experience.


the charge generation however.. well.. each playstyle has its weak point. i see no problem here.


note: i have lvl 92 FNM Sabo in Legacy and lvl 90 shire of shards lightning trapper in standard (+ i think i made like 4 different trap mixes on one of my respec-standard chars). and have been enjoying both immenselly (the miner however after setting up the namelock trick..)

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sidtherat wrote:

well.. i think you are downplaying (or undervaluating) one thing about traps and mines: you can pre-load the damage. pre-loading damage is the reason why we have to load up our Vaal skills and certain bosses (Izaro!) cannot be cheesed this way

just HOW strong pre-loading damage is should be understood from the 'mine bladefall cheeze' combo that plagued us for 3 consecutive leagues (And is still strong - albeit the targeting change nerfed that a bit)

Yes I can agree on that point. It is indeed a pretty huge advantage in certain boss fights.

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sidtherat wrote:

i think all the non-QoL aspects of mines and traps are there to counterbalance this a bit. same with trap cooldowns (3 charges per skill).

traps and mines without a negative QoL there and there are simply stronger spells. sadly the realm where GGG design can affect things is quite shallow - there is no stealth in this game, no surprise etc. our traps are grenades in fact and our mines are traps. with a radio detonation.

Here I cannot agree. If you take away these 'negative QoL mechanics' you still have the inherent drawbacks and advantages of playing with Traps and Mines. You still cannot leech life or trigger on kill effects. Please don't get me wrong here, I'm not saying that you should be able to leech life. I don't want to erase the drawbacks. I'd simply like to get rid of the stuff that makes Traps and Mines have that clunky feeling.

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sidtherat wrote:

on the detonation: if you can automate it then you are basically playing self cast. it is a drawback (and for me - more of a pro as i can clear the volatiles and tackle essences on my terms when i have a control over where my mines go off) of mine playstyle.

Again, you'd still have the pros and cons of playing with Mines, so I wouldn't say it's the same like self casting a spell. However, I understand that detonating Mines manually helps against Essence and Volatile monsters. Still, I think that players should be given the option for a automated mine detonation, so everyone can play how he wants to.

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sidtherat wrote:

one +111 howevers: mine placement. i havent heard a single reason (no matter how weird) WHY ggg changed it. the 'numlock trick' solves that, but it is terribad shot-ones-foot move on ggg side. WHY?

No words needed.

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sidtherat wrote:

Saboteur.. he is a cool class. his 'fault' is that he is a specialised to the extreme. mines and traps. nothing more. and the choices are already pre-made. i highly value the 4 point blind path so for me the tree is already decided when i start a miner or trapper: 4 damage nodes, 4 blind nodes. there is 0 choice.

i like the bonuses Sabo give me, i can even accept the one-dimensional aspect of the class but there being 0 choice? not a fan. it is almost bad as with the Slayer where there are 4 auto-picks..

I kinda agree that the 'Blind Path' is indeed useful and a step in the right direction. In my opinion we should have more options of this kind. Extra Life Regen, Evasion, Phasing after placing a Mine comes to mind. This is what I ment when I said the Saboteur Ascendency class should offer mechanics suited for the risky playstyle.

Actually, I was not that convinced that saboteur was that great for trapper ( since blind only works VS attacks, and not against ennemies that have not been hit by the traps. But it does synergize well with smoke mine ), and the other nodes don't provide that much dps compared to other classes ....
However they do provide AOE, which is pretty needed if you don't go lightning trap ( I'm wondering if that one would be fin as a dead eye to be honest lol ), so .....

That makes little choice, as Sid pointed out.

Dont forget that for 3.0 trappers are probably a lot worse than for 2.6:
Trappers were already weak vs boss. Giving boss 100+% more health hurts them.
Double dipping removal hurts trapper more than most others. Especially Ignite trap (which was maybe the best way to deal with the boss issue as pure trapper) is probably dead.

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Fruz wrote:

Actually, I was not that convinced that saboteur was that great for trapper ( since blind only works VS attacks, and not against ennemies that have not been hit by the traps. But it does synergize well with smoke mine ), and the other nodes don't provide that much dps compared to other classes ....
However they do provide AOE, which is pretty needed if you don't go lightning trap ( I'm wondering if that one would be fin as a dead eye to be honest lol ), so .....

That makes little choice, as Sid pointed out.

That's exactly what I was trying to say. When playing a Saboteur Trapper the Ascendency class pressures you into playing a specific build. First, you have Chain Reaction, which incentivises you to use Cluster Traps. So a skill like Firetrap is not a real choice here. Then, you're getting bonuses to AoE and Elemental Damage, Penetration. That leaves physical and projectile Traps behind. Honestly, it really feels like the Saboteur has been designed for Ice Trap only.
If you want to play lightning Trap, a crit Trapper, Firetrap, EK Traps, etc, you are so much better off talking another Ascendency class.

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Zrevnur wrote:

Dont forget that for 3.0 trappers are probably a lot worse than for 2.6:
Trappers were already weak vs boss. Giving boss 100+% more health hurts them.
Double dipping removal hurts trapper more than most others. Especially Ignite trap (which was maybe the best way to deal with the boss issue as pure trapper) is probably dead.

I do agree. But I think it's because most Traps and Mine skills are in a pretty bad shape right now anyways and 3.0 just delivers another killing blow.
But I'm not even complaining about the state of most of the Trap skills because I think we need general improvements first before we can even talk about how to fix the specific skills in particular.

Little Disclaimer/Rant. Feel free to skip.




Okay, let's move on to the suggestions. It is actually just one suggestion in it's core that might seem very radical to you. But I can assure you that it is not just a random idea thrown around. I have carefully thought about it and it's implications and I will try my best to guide you though my line of thought that led me to believe it is the right thing to do.
The idea is to remove Traps or Mines, as they are, from the game. Now, before your grab your fork and torch please hear me out! I know that removing something broken doesn't fix it's brokeness. So please let me explain why I think PoE would be a better game with this change. In order to explain I have to get back to a statement I made in my feedback section:

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Traps and Mines are a trade-off mechanic. You could cast a spell yourself, which has it's advantages, like being able to scale cast speed, get life and mana leech and trigger on kill effects. It also has the disadvantage of dealing with damage reflection. Using a Trap or a Mine will bring the advantage of dealing more damage (at least per skill usage) and not having to worry about damage reflection. There are certainly more advantages and disadvantages to both sides, but the point is that using Traps and Mines is a trade-off. It is also important to realize that Traps and Mines are different in degree, not in kind. It's a matter of how much you want to trade. Playing Mines is alot more risky than playing Traps, but deals even more damage.

Traps and Mines are different in degree, not in kind. That's the key here. Traps and Mines were implemented to add a new kind of playstle to the game. As I already said, they share the same advantages and disadvantages. Choosing Mines instead of Traps is just a matter of Risk versus Reward. You are endangering yourself by having to place the mines close to the enemy but you are rewarded with more damage. The problem is that even though both Traps and Mines share the same core mechanics the playstyle is different enough to not be treated as being the same mechanics.
The Saboteur Ascendency class tries to suit both playstyles which really is an impossible task. This is the reason why we're pressured into a specific build when playing a Saboteur. There are just not enough nodes available to suit all the different options for Traps and Mines. The logical conclusion is that you either need two Ascendency classes or you have to get rid of either Traps or Mines.
To me it makes perfect sense to do the latter. Why would we need two iterations ot the same mechanic anyways? The important thing is to keep the playstyle in the game that GGG was aiming at. But instead of having two different degrees of the same playsytle (where Traps is basically halfway between casting a spell yourself and playing with Mines) just keep one but tailor the game around it.

I know this change seems radical at fist but it really isn't that dramatic in my opinion. Having only one mechanic in the game would make so many things alot easier. Anyways, feel free to let me know what you think.

iirc mines initially were placed at your feet, and then ggg changed it out of blue.

Imo keep traps and mines as is, but both needs some smoothing over to make them feel better.
I tried my first mine mine and trap build this leauge and this is a few points of what i think.

-Both have a little too high mana requirement, much due to the multiplier on "required" supports.

-Mines felt somewhat clunky with stuttering during running, laying mines and detonating. Made me stop lvling with mines at early 70s.

-Trap cooldowns are too high, even with passive, helm enchant and saboteur ascendancy, lightning trap cooldown was from time to time still an issue(2 base, down to 1s).
Trap support cd is awful, there are a few builds i would want to try with it, but i end up dumping the idea because of this.

-Trap and mines have passives that you're pretty much forced to take just to make them feel smoother to play with.

-Cluster trap have a little high less multi? Could at least keep it at 0,5% per lvl instead of 1%, and let it have the same amount on lvl 20.


Mines should not detonate instant. Spell totem - detonate mines works well for this. But the interaction should be improved to make the gameplay smoother.

Split mine and trap ascendancies and slightly improve both routes, or beef up bomb specialist.
10% element dmg on minors should be changed to 10% trap/mine dmg.
"Born in the shadows" is utter shit for a 4 pt ascendancy.
Cannot be blinded on a mine/trap ascendancy, either i am missing something here, or this is TOTALLY useless....

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Tian_Yihao wrote:

Cannot be blinded on a mine/trap ascendancy, either i am missing something here, or this is TOTALLY useless....

Dont know if attack based traps/mines suffer from character being blinded.
(And its somewhat useful for 'fortify'.)