Variations of Vortex trap builds

Hi all,

I'm currently playing and thoroughly enjoying Mathil's Vortex trap build which uses Pyre to convert cold damage to fire damage. I am wondering how this would compare with a build that takes damage conversion one step further by converting (the already converted) fire damage to chaos damage by using The Consuming Dark daggers and The Infernal Mantle chest as in the below build:

https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1747313

Below is Mathil's build guide which is what I am currently following:

https://youtu.be/NtiIAQBxTQg

I am likely going to want to stay as a Saboteur for the Cooldown Recovery Speed as Vortex traps are slow enough to recharge as it is.

EDIT: The legacy version of The Consuming Dark is quite expensive. Without two of these (and The Infernal Mantle), I don't believe it's possible to attain 100% conversion of fire damage to chaos damage.

Can't see you getting anything there. The reason people do that with skills like firestorm is to get debuff stacking without emberwake, and Vortex isn't a big stacker, you get very high ignite from it by default

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raics wrote:

Can't see you getting anything there. The reason people do that with skills like firestorm is to get debuff stacking without emberwake, and Vortex isn't a big stacker, you get very high ignite from it by default

maybe somewhere in the future, when the less damage effect from things like cluster traps will no longer "double dip" on ignite/poison

Another advantage is that you dont need 100% chance to ignite. Or rephrased: Poison does not require crit or ignite-chance invest.

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raics wrote:

Can't see you getting anything there. The reason people do that with skills like firestorm is to get debuff stacking without emberwake, and Vortex isn't a big stacker, you get very high ignite from it by default

Thanks. So if I understand correctly, you believe that it makes more sense to focus on a single (and big) ignite per Vortex, rather than anything else (including chaos/poison variants)?

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Ludvator wrote:

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raics wrote:

Can't see you getting anything there. The reason people do that with skills like firestorm is to get debuff stacking without emberwake, and Vortex isn't a big stacker, you get very high ignite from it by default

maybe somewhere in the future, when the less damage effect from things like cluster traps will no longer "double dip" on ignite/poison

I did not realise this. Would it perhaps be better to drop Cluster Traps and focus on improving the AoE of a single Vortex?

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Zrevnur wrote:

Another advantage is that you dont need 100% chance to ignite. Or rephrased: Poison does not require crit or ignite-chance invest.

Good point.

If you dont know (you havent mentioned it?): Pyre is going to be nerfed.

Is Pyre+Vortex better than just a fire trap?

I've used fire trap/multi/aoe as a standby during levelling for years and that's three gems, letting me toss in a trap damage gem easily - in glove/helm/boot while my main DPS is in a 5-6l.

With 2x consuming darks converting 80% fire to chaos I could only imagine it'd make fire trap even better without the trap + vortex duo.

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maxwolfie wrote:

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raics wrote:

Can't see you getting anything there. The reason people do that with skills like firestorm is to get debuff stacking without emberwake, and Vortex isn't a big stacker, you get very high ignite from it by default

Thanks. So if I understand correctly, you believe that it makes more sense to focus on a single (and big) ignite per Vortex, rather than anything else (including chaos/poison variants)?

Depends on a lot of things, my point was that there's no need to do it because ignite from Vortex packs quite a punch.

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BlaqWolf wrote:

Is Pyre+Vortex better than just a fire trap?

It does far more ignite damage. Reason being that Vortex ignite scales with spell damage. So %increased spell damage and 'Controlled Destruction' link double dip.

Thanks for the replies thus far.

Here is my most recent train of thought regarding Burning Vortex Traps:

I found the new Area of Effect for Vortex lacklustre following the changes in the latest patch. Clear speed was noticibly slower. To combat this, I attempted to effectively spread my damage area by trying proliferation, which of course meant that I had to drop my Pyre ring. Hrimburn gloves were an option however the problem with these gloves is that they still allow Vortex to freeze, which has a negative effect on burn proliferation. The only other option was The Three Dragons helmet which so far is working very well.

However, I soon realised that I could no longer use lightning damage (Orb of Storms, more specifically) to proc vulnerability to fire and cold, as lightning damage may freeze enemies when using this helmet. In other words, a similar problem to that when using Hrimburn gloves. The only thing I could come up with was to alternate some sort of fire spell with Vortex, in order to switch between vulnerability to fire and cold. I ended up hitting a bit of a brick wall here.

I am now trying to theorycraft a build that is focused around stacking ignites through the use of the Emberwake ring, while still using The Three Dragons helmet. I intend on using Multiple Traps and Cluster Traps together, as well as Cheap Construction and/or Unstable Payload jewels to maximise the amount of traps and trap triggers (and therefore Vortex casts) in order to stack burns.

This is where I am now, however I am not sure whether I am better off just using a single-burn type build (as originally planned) or pursue the burn stacking idea.

I would welcome any suggestions regarding how to best apply fire based damage to large packs to proc vulrunability to cold. I would also welcome any insight regarding the burn stacking idea.

Of course, any other comments are welcome.