Q and A about what it means to follow Christ
" Eh? You are forgetting about the context of eternity. All the servants, Job's children, etc... that died or had crap happen to them most likely went to the good side of eternity. An upright man like Job probably had an effect on everyone nearby. Honestly, lucky them. And the Bible doesn't say anything about Job's wife dying. She basically disappears from the text after saying one thing. And don't forget about the fact that Jesus was the foremost proponent of "women's rights" when He was on earth. Read through what Jesus says about the marriage relationship. |
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" It can also drive others away. It's not a good reason for not believing, but for some, it is in fact a reason. And beyond that, is there no better way to draw a person closer to you than to put them through hardships? When my girlfriend accidentally intentionally fries my computer by spilling a drink on it, my response it will probably not be to grow closer together to her. And while I'm sure she could engineer a situation in which it seems like an accident, and where we could grow closer together, we typically label such actions manipulative and abusive. I realize this is fairly mainstream Christian doctrine, and not merely your opinion. I don't think that makes it much better, though. " I think Ken Ham would disagree quite fervently with you. So would a lot of Christians, based on their interpretations (just for example). " ...But wait, didn't you say it made zero impact? But a great many Christians believe that nonbelief is the one thing God can't forgive. " Right, and there are entire fields of study dedicated first and foremost to interpreting the bible. Hermaneutics comes to mind. But despite that, there are thousands of distinct branches of Christianity, based on differing interpretations - often extremely substantial differences. Faith, faith and works, or just works? What's the most accurate translation of the bible (some sects still think it's the KJV, despite everything we've learned)? What qualifies as "baptism"? What actually are heaven and hell? There are divisions about just about every part of Christian doctrine. If I wrote a whitepaper on computer science for university, showed it to five different professors, and each professor took away a completely different, incompatible thing from it, I would not be looking at a passing grade. And I'm just some random schlub, not the divine creator of the universe with perfect foreknowledge who could have easily seen these kinds of disputes coming. What's going on here? Luna's Blackguards - a guild of bronies - is now recruiting! If you're a fan of our favourite chromatic marshmallow equines, hit me up with an add or whisper, and I'll invite you! IGN: HopeYouAreFireProof Last edited by Budget_player_cadet on Feb 25, 2017, 5:42:56 AM
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" WALLOFTEXT incoming. I *tried* to be concise, and if you want to discuss any more of this in-depth, let me know. If you have a Bible of your own, I encourage you to read the cited scriptures. (or you could use an online Bible of your choice) (I appologize in advance if, in my haste to write this, I used the scriptures that came to mind that expressed the thought I had, but may not have been entirely in context, and if need be, I will go back and collect other applicable scriptures in such a case.) I found it interesting to find a mostly civil and serious discussion of this topic on PoE boards (This is my first time browsing this forum category, since I was curious and won't likely be able to play this league for another week or so, and it's a Sunday, so I figure it's a good day for the subject). I've studied the Bible for about 30 years and I've taught individuals for over 5 years, so I've come to a few conclusions that might help clarify things for some people. I'd love to address individuals and their personal concerns, rather than broadly address topics, but it's a forum, and isn't the best format to discuss in-depth personal things. In this format, all I can do really, is present the facts as I know them, and what the scriptures say. What you do with this information is up to you. Just to touch on some of the above most recent topics, I'll start with interpretation since it serves as a cornerstone of the discussion: * Interpretation of the Bible. First, I come from an understanding that the Bible is God's book.
Spoiler
If you don't believe the Bible is the word of God, I'm not going to write a book here about the prophecies, historical accuracy, scientific accuracy, practical value, etc, on the forum to try to convince you, and a few posts here won't do the trick... it takes serious study to prove this to yourself. Though I'd be willing to talk one-on-one privately to present the information needed for such a study.
The Bible wasn't written as a list of do's and don'ts or a religious text book where you can go to the chapter on X that is everything you need to know religously about X. It is a collection of 66 books written for various reasons, put to paper by about 40 different men (from shepherds to kings) over about 1600 years, but all from the same author. It's own stated overall goal is to provide comfort and hope so we can endure living in this crazy mixed up world that is so far off from how God intended (Romans 15:4) until things are made right. It helps us come to have a good relationship with God as a friend - and shows us how to worship God in a way that He accepts. It provides a record of God's dealings with mankind through the ages, so we can come to know how He views what's going on, and what He has done about it, and will do in the future. It also provides guidance to make the best of our lives (2Tim 3:16,17). It lets us know what "God's will" is - what He wants us to do. (It's not always spelled out like "God wants you to do X in your current situation.") This takes study and meditation (not ohm-ohm empty your mind stuff, but thoughtful consideration of: What does this event teach me about God?, How does this relate to other parts of the Bible I've read on the same subject?, How can that help me in everyday life, in interactions with other people?, and How can I use this Bible principle in making decisions? - that sort of thinking is meditation.) With these thoughts in mind, you also have to understand that not everything written in the Bible is from the point of view of God. For instance, statements of opposers are recorded (like the false comforters of Job spewing many false things about God, and even some of Job's own thoughts were 'crazy-talk' due to his depression.) The human element of some books of the Bible are invaluable in showcasing how God was able to use ordinary people with faults and problems to carry out His will successfully. Context is very important, as mentioned by another poster. Sometimes the events we read about in one part of the Bible are commented on in other parts of the Bible (the book of Hebrews lists a long line of faithful servants of God, and gives us God's perspective on them so we can go back and see what made them considered faithful, even though they did some bad things. What does God see in them?) Since there was only one author who cannot lie, the Bible does not contradict itself. If an individual's interpretation of something contradicts what another part of the Bible says about the same topic, the interpretation must be wrong. This helps one to reason and come to conclusions that weed out wrong thinking. Why are contradictory teachings found in many religions all claiming to be "Christian"? Instead of sticking close to the Bible, many of them have done as was prophesied in the Bible: They have been teaching commands of men as doctrines; they do the same thing that the Pharisees did in Jesus' day that he denounced (Matthew 15:9). It was prophesied that after the death of Jesus' apostles, false "Christians" would arise. (Matthew 13:24-30 explained at Matt 13:36-43) These wicked men would come from within the congregations and draw off people to follow after themselves. (Acts 20:29,30 and 1 Timothy 4:1-3) Because of this falling away, their conduct would not reflect the teachings of the Bible, but since they "claim" to follow the Bible, the teachings of the Bible would be ridiculed. (2 Peter 2:1-3) And the reason this is possible, is because people would want to choose for themselves how they worship God, instead of doing what He has established. (2 Timothy 4:3,4) Why can't everyone simply understand what the Bible says? Luke 10:21 says "In that very hour he became overjoyed in the holy spirit and said: “I publicly praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have carefully hidden these things from wise and intellectual ones and have revealed them to young children. Yes, O Father, because this is the way you approved." See also Matt 13:10-15 and Isaiah 29:13,14 and Psalms 94:4-10 and Proverbs 28:5 Humble, child-like people who are willing to be taught and understand what God wants are given understanding. They don't try to prove themselves or their own views right, so they are allowed by God to understand. Those who are "wise and intellectual ones" generally disregard what the Bible has to say. Those who want to do what God considers bad will similarly disregard anything that says otherwise, or they'll twist the scriptures to fit their opinions. Some people think it's too complicated to understand, or it's too much to read. Some people don't like to study, or they don't want to waste their time on something that they think doesn't have a "truth" to discover at the end anyway. If there is no true understanding, anyone could have any interpretation they wanted, and it's as good as the next person's... making it quite pointless. However, it's not impossible for people to understand the Bible correctly. Far from being a mystery and something only scholars can understand, Colossians 1:9,10 talks of people being filled with accurate knowledge. God wants everyone to understand.(1 Timothy 2:3,4) Jesus said that God's word is "truth" (John 17:17), and the Bible speaks of one God, one faith, one baptism (Eph 4:1-6, 11-15). This leaves no room for multiple contradictory religious teachings. The "Truth" can be found! In the past, to help His people understand the law, God had priests read the law and "put meaning into it." (Nehemiah 8:8) (the people at that time had been in exile for a long time, and many people born in exile didn't know the language the law was written in, so this helped them to understand better. Today, most people don't speak the original languages of the Bible, so teachers are useful to us as well.) Also, in Christian times, God has seen to it that people can get help in understanding the scriptures from other Bible students, like at Acts 8:26-35 and Acts 18:24-26. * Creation / Taking everything literally / Belief / Faith These things tie together so well... Next, we'll consider faith. Hebrews 11:1 defines faith by saying: "Faith is the assured expectation of what is hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities that are not seen." One reference work explains: “Assured expectation” translates the Greek word hy·poʹsta·sis. This term is common in ancient papyrus business documents. It conveys the idea of something that underlies visible conditions and guarantees a future possession (like a Title deed to a car or house). The Greek word eʹleg·khos, rendered “evident demonstration,” conveys the idea of bringing forth evidence that demonstrates something, particularly something contrary to what appears to be the case. Thereby this evidence makes clear what has not been discerned before and so refutes what has only appeared to be the case. People have faith in many unseen things, such as wind, electricity and gravity, based on evidence. Biblical faith is based on evidence. It's not gullibility, or believing something just because someone said it is so. It's not blind to facts. It's also more difficult to "test" by scientific methods to get immediate results (God doesn't provide miraculous proof on demand to show He exists.) It takes reasoning and study (and for me personally, it was primarily a study of prophesy and seeing the practical results of applying its principles). Faith is essential to worshipping God because we have to believe that He exists and will reward those seeking Him. (Hebrews 11:6) Does having faith in God and faith that the Bible is His word of truth mean taking everything in the Bible literally? I can say definitively that not everything can or even should be taken literally. There are parables, stories, illustrations, visions, etc, all used to explain things in ways that are easier to grasp and accept and remember, than simply being told how something is. The Bible mentions those who didn't just take the Christians' word for it when they explained the scriptures to them; they researched what they were told. (Acts 17:2,3 and Acts 17:10-12) Again, the Bible does not promote blind faith, the Bible encourages study and thoughtful examination of the scriptures. (Romans 12:1,2) So far as I've researched, every single time scientific topics are discussed in the Bible, they are accurate. This goes from Isaiah saying the earth is a sphere (Isa 40:22) (long before people could confirm this with telescopes or viewing it from space) and Job saying the Earth was hanging upon nothing - gravity (Job 26:7) (not flat, and not sitting on the back of a turtle on top of elephants, etc) to the water cycle (Eccl 1:7 and Job 36:26-28). As for creation taking place in 7 literal days... the Bible does not specify that these are 24hr days. The first 6 days were said to have already finished, but we're still in the 7th "day" right now. (See Genesis 2:1-3 and Heb 4:1-11) In Hebrews, the days of creation are mentioned again, and we are urged to enter God's rest (his sabbath day). Jesus is described as being the Lord of this Sabbath (Matthew 12:8) and his rule will extend at least a thousand years. In addition, Genesis 2:4 combines all the creative days into "the day" when God created the physical universe, and 2 Peter 3:8 says that to God, a day is a thousand years, and a thousand years is a day, which demonstrates how different time is to God. In conclusion, the "days" of creation were essentially individual periods of time in which God accomplished specific creative tasks, and we are several thousand years into the 7th "day" right now (with at least 1000 years to come under Jesus' rule). There is no conflict in believing in 7 creative days and science. This is not a scientific "mistake" and you don't have to take it literally to believe the Bible is telling the truth. The only thing this understanding does, is point out the flaw in taking everything in the Bible literally in all cases, and calling everyone who doesn't see it that way a non-believer or lacking faith. Quickly: Faith and/or Works? It's not hard to understand this point. Some people like to cherry-pick the scriptures they like, or get into debates about semantics, (like "exercise faith" or just "believe"), when these things are intertwined if you look at the big picture. Faith is obviously required. (Heb 11:6, John 3:36) Works prove we have faith. (James 2:21-26, John 14:12) Faith without works is useless (James 2:19,20 - 19 You believe that there is one God, do you? You are doing quite well. And yet the demons believe and shudder. 20 But do you care to know, O empty man, that faith without works is useless?) Works themselves cannot be used to "earn" salvation, since it's a free gift. (Eph 2:8,9 - 8 By this undeserved kindness you have been saved through faith, and this is not of your own doing; rather, it is God’s gift. 9 No, it is not a result of works, so that no one should have grounds for boasting.) What are the works? That's where you get your answer to the Original Topic of this thread: what it means to follow Christ... which I address at the end :) * Why does God allow bad things to happen to us? There are 2 main issues at stake here, not just mankind's suffering, as bad as it is. In fact, things are going to get so bad before God steps in to fix everything, that if he were not to act, all mankind would be destroyed. (Matthew 24:22) That's not to say that he doesn't act now, but he doesn't act in a blanket manner to stop bad things happening in the world, even though he has the power and desire to do so. First, humans rebelled against God's rulership in Eden. (Gen 3:1-19) God gave mankind 1 law: Do not eat of the fruit of the tree in the middle of the garden (The tree of the knowledge of good and bad) or you will die. However, they fell for satan's slanderous lie: satan said God lied to them about dying if they ate of the fruit, and that God was withholding something good from them - that God was a bad ruler. In their rebellion, Adam and Eve thus said that they didn't need God to tell them what was good or bad, they'd decide for themselves; they could do just fine on their own. At that point, Adam and Eve became "sinful", and tended toward doing wrong things, and were subject to aging and began to die - their children were also sinful; they could no longer pass on perfect human life to their descendants. The conversations recorded in the book of Job between God and satan reveal more. (Job 1:6-12 and Job 2:1-7) Satan charged that Job only served God because he had been blessed by God, and had a protective hedge put up around him, and that if God were to remove that protection, and Job was stripped of all his blessings, he would turn his back on God - satan's further challenge that "a man" will give everything he has in exchange for his life, extended that challenge to the entire human race, saying all humans serve God out of selfish gain and not love. So the 2 issues are: Is God a good ruler; does he have our best interests at heart? Do humans serve God out of selfish gain, or love?
Spoiler
Earlier in this thread, someone mentioned the topic of Job, and I figured I'd put this here... Job became severely depressed at the loss of his children. There is no casual disregard for women in this account. In addition, God didn't kill any innocent people. He refused to do so, but allowed satan to act on his own. Job's wife was never said to have died, and after satan's attack, Job had more children, evidently by the same wife.
Job was rewarded for his integrity with double all that he lost except children, because in the resurrection to come, he will be reunited with his first children who died in satan's attack, as well as those he had later. God intends to completely reverse all the damage done by satan, including the horrible sting of death. I get into a bit more of this later. This point ties in with the issues at hand: ever since Eden, the world is no longer ruled by God. (1John 5:19, Rev 12:9) God has decided to deal with the 2 issues above in a permanent way. Rather than wipe out satan, the disobedient angels (demons), Adam and Eve and start over (there are other reasons for this), He is allowing the issues to play out. How does a world ruled by humans look? Was satan right? Are we better off without God? Do we know what's good and bad for us? Will this make us happy? Once this issue is settled, there will be no question in the future if people and angels try to rebel again, whether they are in the right, or wrong. We already know the outcome of angels leaving their proper dwelling place in heaven and having relations with human women (the nephilim). That violent world was destroyed in a flood, and from that time on, the angels who did this were punished while they await destruction, and the other angels have been forbidden from this course. (Gen 6:1-6, 11-13; Jude vs6; 2 Pet 2:4,5) Not to leave us completely in the dark, God has provided the Bible, with God's way of doing things, His laws and principles on how to live life best, even in our sinful state; how to deal with the problems we now have to deal with. So, we are given a choice: Will we serve God out of love for His way of doing things, and for what He has done and yet will do to fix things, or will we selfishly live our lives without considering what He says? Those who choose to follow what they read from the Bible paint a bright red target on their backs. Satan sees them as a prime target to cause problems for. (Rev 12:17, 1Pet 5:8) He wants to break our integrity to God, violating God's laws - so we lose favor with God and come in line with the same punishment he is due to receive. When we are under trial like this, is when God "allows" us to deal with adversity and helps to strengthen our faith. As long as we stick to Bible principles, God will "make a way out" so we can endure it faithfully. (1Cor 10:13) Even if it means dying for those principles, there is the hope of the resurrection. Additionally: Humans have free will. Our own decisions can, and often do, cause bad results (as seen with Adam and Eve). If we choose to travel alone at night in a dangerous part of town and we get robbed, our decision wasn't very good. If we get into credit card debt that is beyond our means of living, we made bad decisions. Humans who rule nations may not draft laws that are beneficial to all of their subjects. Petty squabling between nations can lead to wars that cause terrible suffering. Even with good intentions, people do not have perfect knowledge of the future, so their decisions may not end well. (Eccl 4:1, 8:9) IF God were to step in and prevent the bad consequences of our choices, He would become party to a lie: that we can make our own distinction between good and bad, and the outcome will be good; that we can successfully rule ourselves without His direction. (Jer 10:23) Finally: Random things happen. We can be in the wrong place at the wrong time. This includes terrible weather phenomenon, automobile accidents, chronic or fatal diseases, etc. (They're not acts of God punishing people. James 1:13, Eccl 9:11) The comfort and hope: God has set in motion the means to fix all these problems and wipe out all the damage done by satan the devil's lie, starting with the first prophesy in the Bible at Gen 3:14,15 about the eventual destruction of the devil. (1 John 3:8; Heb 2:14,15) War, Famine, Sickness, Death, will all be done away with by means of God's Kingdom with Jesus as king. (Luke 4:43; Matt 6:9,10,33; Isa 33:24; Dan 2:44; 1 Cor 15:26) Death caused by our bodies breaking down as a result of Adam's sin will be gone, the earth will be restored to the paradise we lost. No more suffering, and those lost in death will be reunited in the resurrection. (Rev 21:3,4; Acts 24:15) On the main topic of the thread: What does it mean to follow Christ? When one really looks into this and studies it, they'll see how few "so-called-christians" are really trying to live up to their name. (James 1:23-25; 2Cor 13:5) Jesus set the pattern by his way of life, and what he taught. (John 13:15; 1Pet 2:21; John 14:23) Most of the points listed here could each take up lengthy posts of their own to get into the details of how Jesus showed these qualities, and how we can show them in our lives. For now I'll just briefly list them and some scriptures that help make the point. (I know some will be controversial) There are many more qualities we could strive to have and more things we could do, but I don't think everyone wants me to go into all of them in this reply - so I encourage you to continue growing in knowledge of Jesus in your own personal study. (2Pet 3:18) We are told to have "the mind of christ", to think like he did, to act like he did. (1 Cor 2:16; Romans 15:5) As a child, he was respectful of his imperfect parents and other adults. He was a student of the Bible even as a pre-teen. (Luke 2:41-52) He customarily attended the arrangement for worship in his time, from his youth all the way into his adulthood. (Luke 4:16) He knew the scriptures well, and knew how to use them to reason, using the scriptures as the final authority. (Matthew 4:1-11) He was baptized to present himself to God to do His will, taking up the role he was prophesied to fulfill, appearing as the foretold messiah, right on time. (baptisms for his followers have a different significance. I could explain this in more detail, but suffice it to say, he set the example for us in this regard) He used his life to do God's will, not his own. (John 5:30; Matt 6:30-34)(to the point of giving up his life to save ours). What he taught was from God, not of his own originality.(John 12:49) The extent to which we can do this is different for each person. Some have responsibilities that Jesus didn't have, such as husbands providing for their families, caring for sick or aging parents, among other things. (2 Cor 8:12) Likewise, people have different talents and abilities. The principle is to give God our best effort, and teach what He wants people to know. He was no part of the world, remaining neutral in political affairs. He refused to be made king on earth. (John 17:15,16; John 18:36; John 6:15, 1John 2:15-17) However, Jesus did not teach rebellion against the political rulers. (Luke 20:20-25; Matt 26:51,52; Titus 3:1,2) He lived a simple balanced life. Though he had few possessions, he did not take this to extreme self-denial. He spent his time seeking first the interests of God's Kingdom, and then his personal comforts and desires afterward. (Luke 9:58; Matt 6:24-34; Mark 6:31-34; Rom 15:3) He was loving and his disciples would love one another. (John 13:34,35) This means a follower of Jesus wouldn't kill another, even for nationalistic reasons; we'd be willing to die for one another instead. (Acts 5:29) He was humble. (Phillipians 2:5-8; Matt 18:1-4; Matt 20:25-27; Psa 138:6) He was approachable (Mark 10:13-16) He was considerate of the feelings of others. (John 14:14; John 16:12; 1Pet 3:8) He displayed the fruitage (results) of God's spirit: Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Kindness, Goodness, Faith, Mildness, Self-control (Galatians 5:22,23 - Luke 3:21,22; Luke 4:1) Jesus taught others about God and God's Kingdom.(Luke 8:1; Luke 10:22; Mark 1:14,15; Luke 4:42,43) Jesus commanded all of his followers to preach the kingdom message to the population of the entire earth (Matt 24:14; Acts 1:8), and teach those willing to listen further, eventually baptizing them as new disciples.(Matt 28:19,20) This is why some christians are so insistant on sharing what they know about the Bible with others (it's a command to do so!) And it's a 2-part command... the first is preaching, which is simply telling everyone a message. The second is teaching, which is explaining and reasoning with them with the goal that they understand and eventually teach others. And it's not just a huge recruitment campaign; it's a loving work that brings benefits to those who apply the Bible in their lives now, giving them comfort during the distresses of life and a hope for the future. While we may be learning all we can about Jesus, and even actively trying to follow his teachings and imitating his qualities and actions, this world is doing all in its power to make it seem impractical, not worth the effort, and even foolish. So we need to work at it constantly, or we may become "inactive or unfruitful" in this regard. (2Pet 1:5-8) Doing good and/or powerful works does not prove one to be following Christ. (Matthew 7:21-23) Helping the poor, opening hospitals, feeding the hungry, performing miracles of curing diseases, speaking in tongues... even exorcising demons... while all "good deeds", none of that proves one to be a follower of Christ. Jesus said we have to be doing God's will. So who can be said to be doing the will of God today? (not just claiming) (Matt 21:28-32) What is God's will? * Part of it was revealed when God Himself spoke, telling Jesus' disciples to Listen to His son. (Matt 17:5) * Jesus said the 2 greatest commands are: we must love God above all, and our neighbor as ourselves. (Matt 22:37-39; Luke 10:34,35) * Love of God is demonstrated by following His commands. (1John 5:3) * Draw close to God. Do good and stop doing bad things. (James 4:8) * Love of our neighbor moves followers of christ to follow Jesus' command to preach and teach about God's Kingdom, helping them come to an accurate knowledge of the truth found in the Bible. (Matt 28:19,20; 1Tim 2:1-7) * Be united in one faith. (John 17:20,21 and 25,26) * Attend meetings with fellow believers to worship together in an organized way, and have an interchange of love and encouragement, building each others' faith and desire to do good works. (Hebrews 10:23-25) Based on the above, here are some questions to research and ask yourself: * Who as a united religion are known for showing love to one another? Who refuse to kill, even in times of war? * Who use the Bible as their final authority? (not traditions of men, not other "holy" books) * Who are neutral to the politics of the world, keeping themselves no part of the world? * Who are fulfilling the commission Jesus gave to his followers to preach and teach about God's Kingdom worldwide? (not just their priests and missionaries, but all members of their religion) There are more identifying marks of those who are truly following Jesus, according to the scriptures, but that's a good scriptural check-list to get started. | |
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Thank you for taking the time to write that extensive response.
With regards to the interpretation of the bible, you say this: " This, to me, seems like a copout. A way of innoculating your beliefs against questions. This means that, given a contradiction (like, say, what happens with the Potter's Field after Judas's death), you have to invent bizarre scenarios not given in the text in order to bend two clearly contradictory accounts into line. To come back to my example of the computer science paper, if people reached contradictory conclusions from my work, and I came back by trying to hand-wave it away with something not contained in the paper to make it all fit, nobody would be impressed. It is not a failure of interpretation to notice obvious contradictions in a work. It is a failure on the part of the author. And you can't simply pretend those contradictions don't exist by asserting that the author is perfect, any more than you can assert that a murderer is moral by asserting that the murderer is morally perfect. Perfection is not a catch-all excuse, it is a highly fragile quality that one very, very easily loses. With regards to the issue of multiple interpretations, I feel like your response misses the point somewhat. Yes, there may well be one "true" interpretation. But has anyone found it? Is there any valid way to claim someone has found it? Your personal interpretation may be well-founded in the scripture, and hell, for all I know, you could even have it right. It doesn't matter for my argument, though. Even if you have it right, we still have countless Christians who don't. And if, on the search for truth, you keep splintering further and further apart, as opposed to converging on an answer, something is fundamentally wrong with your method. And if you ask the various denominations you disagree with, many of them will do exactly as you have done: they will cite scripture supporting their views and claims. Simply predicting that this would happen does not innoculate one from the results. If you can take two Christians who believe the bible is the infallible word of god, and the two of them, after extensive study, come to two completely different interpretations of the book, something is wrong. It's a cop-out to call them "false christians" or claim that they are arguing in bad faith, because most of them aren't. Most of them are following religious doctrine and scripture to the best of their knowledge and ability. But given a perfect author, there's no reason this should be the case. There's no reason it should be hard to understand. You say yourself: " And yet, we still have multiple contradictory religious teachings. At what point does God start getting some of the blame for this? Or is there only one sect of Christianity that contains literally all of the "child-like and humble" people? Again, we run into this problem. We make excuses for a perfect being. "Oh, it's not that the bible is the big book of multiple choice, it's that the people are reading it wrong, without childlike humility". Okay, even given that, why should that be necessary? To go back to my constant comparison, you don't need childlike humility to read and correctly interpret a physics paper; even the most arrogant dickweed will read the paper and understand the conclusion the author meant for you to reach, or it was a poorly-written paper. It shouldn't have been this difficult for fallible human authors to get this right, let alone the omnipotent, omniscient creator of the universe. If you don't start from the premise that the bible was written by a perfect, omniscient being, all of these bizarre contradictions and need for excuses fall away. Humans write things meant to convey information all the time, and in doing so often succeed. God clearly intended at least in part to convey information here, and he's nowhere near as successful as most human authors. Why? With regards to science in the bible... " Isaiah doesn't say "sphere", though. He says circle. And the hebrew word used implies the circle one would get from a compass. And you don't need to see the earth from space to conclude that it's a sphere; the Greeks figured that one out. Job's description of the earth hanging upon nothing is not actually a description of how gravity works in any meaningful sense - the earth does not "hang" in the sky. Meanwhile, the bible also speaks about the earth resting on pillars, or about being able to see the "four corners" of the world. You probably assume those are metaphors, but were the earth in fact not "hanging upon nothing", but rather supported by something, it would be just as easy for you to point to the bible, say that the passage in Job is "metaphor", and that the bible was totally right about the earth being held up by pillars. It's quite silly. It's like the Muslims who claim that the Qur'an speaks about the big bang theory and the expanding universe. It's a post-hoc rationalization, reinterpreting the scripture to fit what we already know. Meanwhile, actual scientific errors in the bible include things like genesis describing a "firmament" and god creating plants and the earth before he creates the sun. You can play with the concept of days as eons all you want, but that's not how any of that worked. Luna's Blackguards - a guild of bronies - is now recruiting! If you're a fan of our favourite chromatic marshmallow equines, hit me up with an add or whisper, and I'll invite you! IGN: HopeYouAreFireProof Last edited by Budget_player_cadet on Mar 6, 2017, 4:36:50 AM
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" Wave Particle duality - Quantum physics <--Nobody's impressed. An asymmetrical 4 dimensional object would be appear self contradictory as it rotated through a three dimensional realm. There are scientists who dispute that time exists at all. The world is not constrained by logic, and the most proven scientific law we know of, has no causative underpinnings. Paradoxes are short comings of the human mind set, despite our best efforts to escape Flatland. PoE Origins - Piety's story http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/2081910
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" Not short comings of the human mindset but of logical sets themselves. Take for example Gödel's incompleteness theorems, Tarski's undefinability theorem etc. which if generalized would both explain why arbitrarily rationalizing 'the world is not constrained by logic' is a cop out as well as why some things in science can't be proven and ironically require some level of 'faith' to believe in. The human experience is a fascinating one. Last edited by GeorgAnatoly on Mar 6, 2017, 7:35:24 AM
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" There is a difference between what appears to be a contradiction in reality, and what appears to be contradiction in a book. When faced with the odd behavior that light behaves like a particle and a wave, there isn't really much choice but to find some way to reconcile that. We have two things which seem contradictory to our knowledge, yet we know both are true, so we must find a way to piece them together. But any physics paper which simply said "Light is a wave" in one segment and "Light is a particle" in another without reconciling or qualifying either statement would be incredibly unhelpful, and lead to confusion further down the line. And of course, more critically, these aren't hard, complex contradictions, either. They're entirely mundane, simple things. You don't have to appeal to extra dimensions and time being an illusion to resolve these. If you're willing to make things up outside the text and slightly bend the words, you can do so quite simply. It just sounds like a weak, ad-hoc rationalization. Because it is a weak, ad-hoc rationalization. The problem at the core of this is this assumption that the bible is perfect. That God is perfect. It's a perfectly closed loop - "God is perfect. Therefore anything that might lead me to question God or his perfection must necessarily be wrong." Luna's Blackguards - a guild of bronies - is now recruiting! If you're a fan of our favourite chromatic marshmallow equines, hit me up with an add or whisper, and I'll invite you!
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On the topic of contradictions and interpretations.
There are three types of contradictions we're talking about here: 1) Contradictions between people's interpretations of the Bible. (two opposing interpretations cannot both be correct. You CAN define true and false by examining the scriptures.) The truth of a Bible teaching can only be measured against what the entire Bible says. That's the determining factor, not human opinion, or interpretation based on one or two scriptures twisted to fit a human narrative - if any other scripture (taken in proper context) disproves the interpretation, then the interpretation does not fit what the Bible as a whole says, and must be a wrong way of looking at the topic in question. (Romans 10:2) 2) Alleged contradictions in the text of the Bible. (These require more study and background knowledge, but hardly rationalization to make things fit - maybe some have defended them with far-fetched rationalization to you in the past, but that's not the best way to handle them) Many times it comes down to the Bible recording differing points of view of the same subject, or one writer leaving out details that another included.
Spoiler
For your example: Matthew records that Judas' suicide started with hanging himself, but according to Acts, apparently the rope or limb broke, and his body fell down a rocky area - the topography of the region makes this likely. Matthew recorded the method of his suicide, Acts showed the result, giving more detail because (as the next verse states) the field acquired a name from that event that was based on the result - field of blood. No stretch of the imagination is required here. Since this is not a doctrinal point, it's main reason for being brought up is to discount the possible authenticity or veracity of the Bible itself. That is a very serious and rewarding topic worthy of study, but I wouldn't start with things like alleged contradictions.)
3) Contradictions between things the Bible says and man's knowledge or philosophy. (Evolution vs Creation, morality, etc) These topics require personal study to work through, and as I said in my first post, if you don't believe the Bible is the word of God, that's the basis for any further comparison, so go back to step one and start there. This matters, because, if you don't believe the Bible is the word of God, then it's just stuff humans wrote, and humans make mistakes. Their opinions and viewpoints are just as good as any other person's, so why listen to any of what the Bible says - and especially what other people have interpreted the writers to have meant. At worst, that means the Bible writers were liars, and it would be foolish to take what they said as having any authority or value in our lives today. (1 Cor 15:11-19; Prov 14:15,18; James 1:5,6) (whether or not the Bible is God's word is also kinda off-topic from the Original Post; If we're talking about what it means to follow christ... he believed in God, and that the scriptures were truth, that's a given for the following discussion.) In no way is it an excuse to say the Bible is true because the author was God. I'm not saying to take my word for it or to naively take the Bible's word for it; I'm saying prove to yourself it's God's word (or not, and go on discounting all religions based on the Bible, that's your decision to make). It does not innoculate the Bible from questioning. (I tried to make clear how much the Bible encourages sound reasoning and study.) The only real excuse I can see here is people trying to rationalize their beliefs that contradict what the Bible says, by saying "anyone's interpretation could be right, so I'll just believe what I want, you believe what you want." In reality, it's like a bank examining money to determine if it's real or counterfeit. You start with authenticated money (in this case the Bible and Jesus' teachings), and then compare all others to it (in this case religions and their interpretations). Some can be quickly discarded with a test of the ink or security features (the big glaring obvious differences with the Bible), while others are smaller differences that take closer examination. Topics I'd suggest for comparison: Do all good people go to Heaven? Is the soul immortal? What is hell? What happens when we die? Does the Bible forbid those taking the lead in congregations from marriage? What is God's Kingdom? What is God's name? Is God a trinity? It takes study to understand these things and see who has their beliefs matching the Bible's teaching; and there are true answers, making others wrong. In the end, counterfeit money is worthless, and so is worship that God doesn't approve of, so it's important to make the distinction. I've done my research, and I firmly believe the conclusions I've reached are what the Bible says. If someone wants to say I'm wrong, they'll need to bring up scriptures that contradict what I believe; and I'd gladly consider them, as long as they're willing to hear why I believe what I do as well (an honest discussion looking for the truth - not just a debate). I'm not here in this thread to argue individual points to win people over to my conclusions. I have, however, explained the process of coming to accurate conclusions (and a few more pointers below). You can't be afraid to discard a teaching that has been around in churches for thousands of years; just because so many other people may believe it - that doesn't make it true. You have to be ready to objectively look at what the entire Bible says, and then draw conclusions from there. It helps to have referrence works available that you can use to look at all the scriptures that have an impact on the topic in question. Some Bibles have cross-referrences that point you to other scriptures like this (this is the most basic of methods, and not conclusive or inclusive enough to reach a conclusion though). There are concordances too. These are of limited value - mainly letting you search based on key words used in the scriptures, but not all scriptures that talk about the same topic use the same words in that discussion, so more research is needed. It's best to start with a teacher who has done this research. Picking up the Bible and reading from Genesis to Revelation isn't going to be practical in this mode of study, though I encourage people to at least read the Bible cover to cover once, in a translation that they can understand. What is needed, is a topic-by-topic type of study. Also, I wouldn't go to any Bible teacher who asks to be paid for their services of helping you understand the Bible, or charging money for the study materials they provide. (Matt 10:8) You want someone willing to offer a free Bible Study that works with your schedule at a location of your choice, preferrably one-on-one, and not in a classroom setting, so you can ask questions and express yourself freely - and have your individual concerns addressed. I'd be glad to freely study the Bible with anyone genuinely interested, but not on a message board. On the 2nd point: Mis-understandings or alleged contradictions are best discussed after one has learned more about the Bible, so they have a framework of understanding the basic Bible teachings to work from. When teaching one-on-one, we mark down questions like this for later, and come back to reason on them with more background knowledge. Very few alleged contradictions involve doctrinal matters, so if you can wait to clarify these nagging issues, it's usually easier to tackle them later, when one has gained more trust that the Bible is God's word, and are more willing to resolve the question, rather than using it as an excuse to stop their learning entirely. As to the 3rd point: Conflicts between Godly wisdom and man's understanding... Again, it comes down to proving to yourself that the Bible is God's word or not. I've said enough on that, at least on these boards. I'd say that the Bible's message is very clear and easy to understand, once you've cut away all the man-made doctrines and traditions. Once you get to that point, contradictions with what the Bible says become more and more clear to the point that you may wonder how people got stuff so wrong in the first place. (and that's a whole other discussion - where non-Biblical doctrines and traditions came from) (Edit: 2 typos) Last edited by Zaludoz on Mar 7, 2017, 12:02:27 PM
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" In theory, I'd have no problem with this. But again, we're talking about a perfect book, written by a perfect being, and at the same time we're talking about enough different interpretations to cause thousands of schisms. God even saw this coming... And did nothing to prevent or minimize it. He almost certainly could have foreseen catholicism, the JWs, LDS, that whole mess with Martin Luther... But he didn't do anything to prevent it. It just smacks me as bizarre. No matter what doctrine you hold to, the vast majority of Christians, in your eyes, have it wrong. And when that happens, particularly on a text carrying important instructions, the authors have fucked up. How does one reconcile that? Even if I decided today that the bible was the perfect word of god, I have to consider the following: - I cannot simply walk into any given church and expect to have the "right" Christianity - I must perform intense study on the book in an attempt to understand what, exactly, the book requries of me, including studies examining at least one dead language. - Despite the existence of entire fields of study dedicated to this one question, the vast majority of people have gotten this wrong and there is still no clear consensus on what the "right" answer is - I should do this with the humility of a child, while simultaneously rejecting at least some of the experts in the field. I just find this impossible to reconcile, and I'm still not quite sure how you do it. Reaching ahead for a moment, further down the post, you offer this: " I feel like if I asked a room full of 50 Christians these questions, I wouldn't find more than a handful of people who agreed on all counts. And of course, that's before you get into the really hairy stuff, like examining how the bible was canonized. Just that last one, "Is God a trinity", was a matter of serious debate in the lead-up to and establishment of the official, canonized bible. In other words, the people who decided what texts actually made it into the bible were seriously divided on the issue! I'm guessing you could say that god guided the council of Nicaea to the right decision, but you can see the problem if one doesn't start from that assumption, right? And it's only made worse when you consider that this led to catholicism... Which I'm guessing you don't think has Christian doctrine right. Catholics would argue that church tradition was the basis of the bible (rather than the other way around), and I've found it hard to argue against that point. " I guess what bugs me here is... Why do you believe the Bible is the word of God? As mentioned in an earlier post, once you have that belief, it's trivial to defend it, because the logic is a completely closed circle. "Hmm, I have problem X, Y, or Z with the bible. But I know that the bible is necessarily perfect, so I must be wrong." So we necessarily have to go before that step, and ask, "How did we establish this?" I don't know how we established this, and I suppose it gets a bit outside the scope of the discussion we're trying to have here. I'll be perfectly frank - when I look at the bible, I see a book in which the perfect creator of the universe, whose moral character we are supposed to emulate, tells us exactly how and for how long we can own another person as property, and then never changes that position. That's a lil' fucked up. Again, thank you for taking the time to respond. (By your recommendation, I'm going to just cordon off the next part, as I am not an expert on biblical study. I read the book, both in the child companion's version and the real thing, but this was years ago, and I'm pretty sure the one that stuck with me more was the one that told me god merely warned Noah of a coming flood, rather than causing it.)
Spoiler
" I know the apologetic for that. What bugs me is the next part. We've got acts 1:18: 18 (With the payment he received for his wickedness, Judas bought a field; there he fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out. 19 Everyone in Jerusalem heard about this, so they called that field in their language Akeldama, that is, Field of Blood.) And we've got Matthew 27:1-10: 27 Early in the morning, all the chief priests and the elders of the people made their plans how to have Jesus executed. 2 So they bound him, led him away and handed him over to Pilate the governor. 3 When Judas, who had betrayed him, saw that Jesus was condemned, he was seized with remorse and returned the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and the elders. 4 “I have sinned,” he said, “for I have betrayed innocent blood.” “What is that to us?” they replied. “That’s your responsibility.” 5 So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself. 6 The chief priests picked up the coins and said, “It is against the law to put this into the treasury, since it is blood money.” 7 So they decided to use the money to buy the potter’s field as a burial place for foreigners. 8 That is why it has been called the Field of Blood to this day. 9 Then what was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet was fulfilled: “They took the thirty pieces of silver, the price set on him by the people of Israel, 10 and they used them to buy the potter’s field, as the Lord commanded me.” This seems to me to be a flat-out contradiction. In one version, Judas spends 30 pieces of silver to buy a field, and then dies in it. In the other version, Judas gives 30 pieces of silver to the elders, then dies, then the elders spend that money to buy the field. That's the specific contradiction I'm talking about. That said, I find contradictions like this much less meaningful than the much greater issue of so many people just not understanding a book written by a perfect being. Had to juggle a few quote blocks because spoiler tags mess with them. Weird. Luna's Blackguards - a guild of bronies - is now recruiting! If you're a fan of our favourite chromatic marshmallow equines, hit me up with an add or whisper, and I'll invite you! IGN: HopeYouAreFireProof Last edited by Budget_player_cadet on Mar 8, 2017, 10:12:40 AM
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Are pants optional to follow Christ?
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