Build after warchief totem
" " These two situations are the same. The reason you calculate penetration after curses is because that is the order the game does it; an enemy with 999% resistance first gets -83% resistance from your curses, then the 916% is capped to 75%, then 75% is affected by penetration (down to 38% resists). Honestly, overcapping makes the decision forks rather needlessly complicated, because even at full curse effectiveness, lowering resists becomes better as monster resist increases, then it becomes worse as monster resist increases. " The disagreement here, if there is one, comes from a common thread between all this. Generally, "x% more" represents one single multiplier, having the value of 1+x%. But that's not how Penetration interacts with existing resistances; the final result of the resistance calculation acts as one multiplier. That is, penetration only plays one part in the final "more/less" multiplier. Honestly I guess I shouldn't have nitpicked the 37% more point, because Frenzy Charges are similarly, eh, slightly imprecise. If each Frenzy Charge truly granted 4% More Damage, then 2 Frenzy Charges should grant 1.04*1.04 = 1.0816 = 8.16% more damage, not 8% more damage. So in that sense, "37% more damage in all cases" is kind of a valid way of thinking of penetration. What I'm trying to share with you, though, is my other, equally valid way of thinking of penetration, which may or may not match Vipermagi's. So for instance, against a monster with 0% resistance, lowering resists by 83% would grant a multiplier to damage taken of 183%, or 83% more damage. You could have the bizarre hybrid totally-lame-in-my-opinion pseudo +37% more on top of that, for 220% multiplier, or 120% more damage. But, if you presume you keep the curses, but switch out Penetration for, say, Concentrated Effect level 20, then you retain the 183%, and have a separate multiplier for 59% more, leading to: 183% * 159% = 2.9097 Whereas if you keep the curses, and keep Penetration, the Penetration then adds to the Resistance-based multiplier: (100% + 83% + 37%) = 2.20 Now, for the whole [more damage than before slotting in Pen gem] calculation that I said, and which Vipermagi is presumably referring to, we convert it to the same form as the equation we did for Concentrated Effect, or convert to a separate multiplier. This is important because rational players make decisions based on equivalent cost, in this case, one Support Gem socket So, if we solve for a similar form as Concentrated Effect's separate multiplier, we get: 183% * x = 2.20 2.20 / 1.83 = 1.2022 = 120.22% Comparing the two side by side: Concentrated Effect: 183% * 159% = 2.9097 Element Penetration: 183% * 120.22% = 2.20 As you can see, the separate multiplier of a Penetration gem on a monster with 0% resistance is 20% more when you already have inflicted -83% resistance from Curses. Hopefully that can shed light on why Vipermagi would say "20% damage" instead of 37%. Need game info? Check out the Wiki at: https://www.poewiki.net/ Contact support@grindinggear.com for account issues. Check out How to Report Bugs + Post Images at: https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/18347 Last edited by adghar on Sep 26, 2016, 1:49:30 AM
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Writing new post because I always seem to get ninja'd when I make big edits :P
As for my actual own personal opinion, I stand by what I said in a previous help thread. Penetration gem is abso-frickin-lutely amazing. As Natharias mentioned, Penetration is guaranteed against overcapping; Penetration is calculated after resist capping, which means you basically lower the maximum calculated resistance of an enemy. Very reliable. I think what I said in the other thread is that, as long as you're dealing all one element or mostly one element, Penetration is hands down the best choice (for my playstyle, at least). Even when you curse with EW + the single element curse, you're always going to run into resistant monsters that bring the relative value of Penetration up, plus Bosses have less curse effectiveness now, and elemental resistance Map mods can compound the issue. Sure, you might be shedding 10, 20, 30% more compared to a different Support gem in default cases, but shouldn't you be wrecking 0% resist monsters with a decent build anyways? That's what I've found. Penetration helps you the most in the situations where you're most likely to notice it. But I don't really pay attention to Map clear speeds or XP rate. I just like to make sure I can kill as many different types of nasties out there while still surviving. Penetration gem is awesome for that, both on paper and from my personal testing in game. Need game info? Check out the Wiki at: https://www.poewiki.net/
Contact support@grindinggear.com for account issues. Check out How to Report Bugs + Post Images at: https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/18347 | |
" The fact Penetration is so much more reliable than Curses is the reason I never double-Curse for Resistance reduction, personally. Double-Curse plus Pen Support is almost always overkill, and if you don't use Pen, you're fucked if your Curses are ineffectual. | |
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On the original subject...(since one can argue with Natharias for ten years and never get anywhere)
This LNB Warchief build? Chief Smash? If so: Just ran a shop check on Essence. Hezmana's Bloodlust and Lightning Coil can both be had for a chaos, less for HB, and Abyssus is going for 30~35c. A "2-3ex" leveling build budget would cover all three uniques and a Jeweller's Touch prophecy for both armor and axe to 5L them with one or two exalts left over to fill out rare gear. I'm not seeing where the budget problem is? Unless you're talking about the stupidiculous lightning resistances you need on rare gear for Lightning Coil, which is indeed stupidiculous, but the build is a non-crit build with six rare slots. Given 1-2ex for rare budget after uniques and Jeweller's Touch, you should be able to fill it out just fine. Not really sure why you need another build to pay for a build you could probably get going reasonably well on one exalt's worth of currency. That said...Essence Drain can be interesting, though it's also frustrating to play sometimes since there's no decent leech and sustaining mana for it can be annoying. Flameblast is also pretty baller, doesn't need any-damn-thing for extra DPS in your gearing and gets by just fine on a 4L if you have to because it deals Oh My-level damage by itself. ED can be a bit finicky, but a Flameblast tree is dirt simple and the rest of the build isn't much harder. | |
" ...and the game does not consider all variables. As I said, enemies can be unaffected by curses, you can fail to cast them, or miss with them for any number of reasons. Also, look at your post again. Lowering resists becomes better as resists increase, and worse as resists increase? I got your point, but just an FYI. " No, it comes from GGG's messed up methods. It's also similar to Incinerate; it gives a multiplier based on a variable that it simply adds together. I prefer to call this a increased-more hybrid. " There is only one correct thought process for penetration, and that nothing surpasses it. In most cases, it is required. Not using it means you're either stupid or you're doing more than one type of damage. | |
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Nath?
Penetration (i.e. Penetration gems, various "penetrates" passives) is different from, and far more valuable than, resistance reduction. Resistance reduction, via curses, happens before resistance capping, meaning enemies can, essentially, overcap their resistances to your curses the same way you can overcap resistance to their/map curses. Penetration happens after resistance capping and effectively lowers maximum resistance values; it cannot be overcapped against. Regardless of the ordering, however, both act to reduce an enemy's mitigation of your damage. Once that mitigation has been eliminated (i.e. zero enemy resistances), then increasing/More-ing your delivered damage is generally more effective than forcing enemies below zero resistance. You're giving up too much in terms of opportunity cost to cast a million resistance reduction curses on an enemy, EE them, and also penetrate all their reduced resistances. More efficient, effective builds do one or the other. In no case does it really matter to Essence Drain, which works because of factors other than wonky resistance calculations. As evinced by people who've made really good ED builds, something your argument claims should be impossible. Also? Srsly. Mebbe back on topic, guys? | |
" How about reading what I posted. I'm well aware of how things work, and especially what penetration is and how it works. You misread what I put if you think otherwise. Also, seriously, how about reading since penetration is on topic. We're talking about things that apply to the OP's question. Essence Drain was brought up as an option, I offered different options, then we went into which has what and what those things do to it. Reading helps. | |
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Right. We get it. Natharias hates Chaos builds because they can't get over-overpenetration. Message received.
Moving. On. Paz: you still there? Any idea if any of this helps? And/or any other reason in particular that the Warchief Totems build is out of reach for the duration? | |
" ...and the trolls start. Seriously 1453R, why can't you leave the ad hominem shit out? | |
" Because your answer to everyone who tries to debate the math with you is "No you're wrong there's no such thing as too much penetration also Essence Drain builds suck because there's no good way to penetrate enemy chaos resistance", regardless of what anyone says? The existence of level 95+, very powerful Essence Drain builds that have cleared most/all endgame content contradicts your assertion that ED is pointless because there's no good chaos penetration in the game. The skill was tuned with the knowledge that chaos penetration doesn't really exist in mind; it doesn't get it because it doesn't need it. Chaos-resistant enemies are relatively rare outside large bosses, and also Wither is a thing that exists. Stacking over-over-overpenetration/resistance reduction, the way you're espousing, is a huge opportunity cost you're paying, for less return than you could otherwise be getting. Yes, you will do more elemental damage with dual resist-reduction curses, a penetration gem, and every single penetration node in the entire skill tree than someone who doesn't do those things...except you won't because they can use reasonable levels of penetration to boost more efficient sources of improved damage, build more effective trees, and also actually survive content that you won't because you're devoting every last facet of your entire build to getting MOAR PEN. None of which has anything to do with the question posed by the original poster, which was "how do I farm currency on the cheap/what's a good build for clearing stuff on a budget so I can pay for better builds later?" Debating the merits of, say, ED versus Flameblast or Bladefall for that purpose is cool. A fifteen-post tangent on how everyone in PoE is doing it wrong and we all need to triple-curse for resistance reduction and also get 250% penetration is thoroughly unhelpful. So. Does anyone else have ideas to banter about? I'm always on the lookout for good scoops for budget builds myself given that making money is hard while building new characters is fun. |
