On the subject of Gold.
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There have been a lot of posts between my last one and this one that could have been avoided had people simply read my posts :P
I'll also add: The main reason all these systems devolve at some point is because of permanency and thus inflation. Economies in these games are not built to have sinks that are equivalent to the influx... the game keeps crapping out stuff every time you kill a monster, and what you eventually get out of it typically never goes away. Developers rely on two factors: 1. Players quitting 2. The game shutting down before it becomes unmanageable I personally feel like these are lazy ways out, and a better, more complete economic system should be devised. A fully liquid item currency is no different than a fully liquid gold currency with NPCs giving them equivalent intrinsic value... Likewise, the value you gain should be approximately equal to the value you lose, on average, over time... accumulation of wealth DEMANDS inflation, unless it's spent in a way that doesn't increase your accumulating ability... therefore this philosophy should be used in games to guide creation of viable long term sinks. Finally, the realization that both systems are equally liquid under those restrictions leads one to assume that GGG will impose a non-liquid schism between various currencies... not doing so would dictate that a gold economy would be functionally the same and easier to use. If you have account problems please [url="http://www.pathofexile.com/support"]Email Support[/url]
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Gonna have to call you on some semantics here.
"I think I understand your position, but this statement simply isn't true. Inflation erodes buying power, or wealth. Accumulation of wealth isn't necessarily correlated to inflation. Inflation is determined by supply/demand. I believe the message you are trying to convey is that wealth creation will invariably exceed the sinks available in the system, therefore inflation will exist. "This concept I don't quite understand. The need to establish some way of creating a relative valuation does exist, and is currently being discussed abstractly in this thread (through balancing the utility of the currency, not by assigning it an exchange rate). And you are correct in that arbitrary valuations are occurring through the vendor, but I question the need or rationale for direct exchange rates between the various currency orbs. As in the prisoner's camp example presented by a different poster, the market will determine a natural 'gold standard' for valuation of items/trades, a la SoJ and Zods in Diablo2... Every currency can be used for something. If the currency has zero value to the playerbase, then I think GGG will need to intervene and modify the currency or remove it if it isn't being used at all. But there is no need to artificially create wealth by assigning a value to every currency/item through exchange rates. I think it runs contrary to what they are trying to achieve. "We were going to monitor the situation but it was in the wrong aspect ratio." Last edited by Garr0t#3474 on Mar 2, 2012, 8:55:21 PM
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" I disagree with pretty much everything you said about fiat currency, but we don't have to debate it here. Because gold does not have to be a fiat currency. " One, more liquid, currency with intrinsic value will do the same. " Indeed. Why should they not design the economy based on this fact? A GCP or w/e will not be an optimal currency, far from it. |
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" If I understand the discourse in this thread, the concept of the 'gold' being presented is just that: An arbitrary item that has no function in the game other than to facilitate exchange of goods of intrinsic value--a fiat currency. It can only be used for this purpose. It is used only to buy, sell, or store wealth. Items of intrinsic value have utility in the game world (be it crafting (all the currency orbs), or defence, or damage. I am actually starting to wonder if the real concern is: People have a difficult time determining the denominations of the currency (orbs) of Wraeclast because nothing has a numerical value assigned to it. But in essence they do: their stack size and relative rarity. "We were going to monitor the situation but it was in the wrong aspect ratio." Last edited by Garr0t#3474 on Mar 2, 2012, 9:11:52 PM
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" Any game where stuff continues to drop and not be destroyed inflates it has nothing to do with what drops. D2 is a rubbish example. Platinum in Guild Wars works and you can buy Guild Wars platinum for real world money. The problem with Guild Wars is players are not allowed to carry enough platinum so they are forced to use items as higher denomination currency. The older the game world the more it inflates and the more apparent this can't carry enough problem becomes. Sacred I wouldn't know about. The irony is PoE as it stands is going to have one of the fastest inflating economies of all games and the deluded are claiming it can't because it hasn't got gold. It is in beta a few months after a wipe and we already have a thread complaining that orbs are taking up too much stash space. In inflation terms PoE is screwed, orbs or gold dropping isn't going to make any difference. In trading terms PoE is also screwed because trading without a currency is haphazard and laborious. Gold dropping instead of orbs would provide a trading currency, however, that also has problems, mostly that it is boring. I would like to see PoE do what Guild Wars does but better. As for inflation unless the Devs are prepared to make some radical changes PoE players are just going to have to accept wiping themselves periodically by moving to new empty worlds (leagues). |
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Heh. I realized something. HC League will be fairly insulated from inflation because there is an active carry trade to Default League, both intentionally (killing character after a rush league) and unintentionally (dying in HC).
Inflation is being managed through vendor arbitrage and storage limitations. Recipes and values of items sold can be changed to increase consumption of goods, effectively removing them from the economy. It can also be indirectly controlled by modifying drop rates. "We were going to monitor the situation but it was in the wrong aspect ratio."
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" I don't recall what was discussed in the first pages, but the last few pages have been mostly about that gold can have intrinsic just like orbs can. |
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@*Everyone*
hey guys what do you think of my solution on PAGE 10? It serves BOTH FUNCTIONS without SURRENDERING to EITHER SIDE because when you buy or sell YOU SELECT CURRENCY TRADE OR BARTER TRADE! I love virtual brutality so save it for the Mobs...
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" hum, I see a bigger problem here : a real hardcore player will never play in default so he'll not "trade" in default after his "death" (for what stuff and items currency if he don't play on default ? huh?). imagine a level 80 with good stuff : what can he do : - imediately delete his character - let him alive to sometime cry over his beloved stuff - give away all his stuff for free (it may hapen... rly?) - trade over "jsp" in exchange for stuff in hardcore... maybe i'm wrong, but human nature seem to lead toward the last point...? ... nothing
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" Accumulation of wealth is denomination of players' progress. Accumulating ability must rise as players are progressing, if not game will not be rewarding. Bigger challenge - bigger rewards it can't be any other way. How do you want to replace that? With achievements? " And how players would react to this? What's the point of using a currency when you are unable to tell its value? (rhetorical question...) They will use some other ingame currency or/and some 3rd party option (PoE jsp). Some noobs (sorry for term :P) might use currency items in trades but all those folks who will play the end game will not. Majority of wealth in arpgs (and in real life too) is always owned by small most advanced group of ppl, hence we will end up here with the same shit as in D2, or even worse since gold is far more convenient to use for some basic applications like vendors. In theory everything's fine. In practice it sucks. |
