Is any Arc build viable for end-game?

Hey i had (still have) an arc shadow last league aswell on which i was able to clear up to t15 maps (not core). Difference to your build is that I went life+es way. Didnt want to rely on vaal pact so i just have some life regen+leech from warlords. Regen helps alot in lab for example.

On that char i felt like the best defense for me was mobs freezing from call of the brotherhood cold conversion + having my dps at i think it was around 120k. Using slightly different gem choices for arc.

Downside on my build is that if there comes a tough ele reflect mob that snoozes your way theres a 50/50 you kill yourself on reflect.

Feel free to check my char vatunARC if your interested in some build choices i made.

I will try to answer on some of your suggestions. Do take it like I'm trying to negate everything that said to me. I'm just trying to make a constructive conversation

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Natharias wrote:

So it's a bad thing that not every build can do Blood Magic maps? What about the other mods, like no regen, less recovery, reflect, and other mods meant to counter specific builds.

No it's not a bad thing since there are plenty of other maps and map mods. But lab? There's only one. I don't feel like it's a balanced thing if it is made only for some builds. And the problem of course are not the traps. It's the fight with Izaro. And the last phase? OMG Jesus Christ, I can't imagine my character winning this fight. So narrow and tight and so heavy physical damage. Man, there is not a solution for every build. I believe Atziri is more doable for more builds than Izaro but Izaro is more necessary and that's not fair.

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Natharias wrote:

Life builds do not have more advantages than ES or CI builds. In fact, I'd daresay that ES has more options.

Oh man, this issue. Don't get me started with life over ES issue. Life has regen, ES don't. And no, running a few seconds and you're back to full plan isn't available with Izaro. Life can go BM also. Life have flasks. Life is way more cheap. Life shits on chaos damage. Life have leech without the need to take 2 notable passives in every fcking build you make. Life has life gain on hit mechanic. And of course the biggest advantage: stun and freeze. Hell, even the "per strength" and "per intelligence" point bonus is better for life. Strength gives flat life and intelligence gives percentage. And what ES has? Bigger pool with tons of currency which is useless in fights like Izaro and reserve life ONLY with a specific item. Oh oh and the stun avoidance *now people laughing*. No thanks, life is way better tha ES.

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dudiobugtron wrote:

- Link Orb of Storms to controlled destruction, and use it to help proc power charges using unstable infusion. You might be able to do without PCoC.
(edit: or, just link it to inc crit strikes and PCoC... not sure why I didn't think of that before!)

Yes! Thanks for the suggestion. I already linked Orb of Storms with PCoC and CoH with warlor's mark. Suprisingly, I'm always full on power charges and have good leech with some occasional end charges. I should have think of that earlier :P And that let me trade PCoC with critical damage which make my dps a little higher.

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Zed_ wrote:

Your gear has room for improvement and your tree is very damage-greedy with some inefficiencies.

Really? You think? I thought my dps is a bit low. I know, some inefficiencies exists, I should make some changes but do you think I should drop some damage? I always thought that end-game build should have at least 100k dps. Maybe I'm wrong.

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Snorkle_uk wrote:

Personally I got sick of lightning coil being the answer to every builds defenses ages ago

Yeah man, I'm sick of lots of things being the only answer to some builds. Shavs for example. Is there anyone that can make a LL build without shav? Don't think so. Or a non-summoner ES build without Ghost Reaver and Vaal Pact?

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cahorie wrote:

Hey i had (still have) an arc shadow

That's a pretty nice build you have there man. And I'm so much in need for a void battery :P
May I ask how much life/ES you have?

One other thing I noticed is that you have basically no defensive flasks. And 2 quicksilvers!

For the lab, try swapping out the silver flask and one quicksilver, and pop in something like a granite of iron skin, and a stibnite flask. You should basically be able to facetank Izaro with Vaal Pact, LL gem, 8k ES and 60k dps with your 4 flasks, and arc will just auto-kill any plebs that spawn to refill your flasks.

Just make sure you stand in close to him so the stibnite gets him, and also run away when the green circle comes.

pcoc is an expensive way to get power charges... costs an entire link.

what does that entire link provide? what else could it provide?

how else can you get power charges?

the obvious temptation is to curse with lightning pen, which is best
vs a boss.. but for packs use assasins mark.

cast it on a group, clear it and then clear the next few packs
then recast mark, reclear. should be getting full charges in 1
pack.

during a boss fight tho? youd be targeting the adds too much and
would not maintain charges... best to ignore charges. use lightning pen

i have nothing to say about survivability.

uber izzy cant be frozen.

Following is based on Witch, but I assume it can work for your character too.

I had Arc 6.2k hp based with legacy Lightning Coil and it could not stand vs elemental damage, exploding mobs etc.

Energy shield is only way to go - you need minimum 9k es, 11k should get you to lvl 100 without "insta random" deaths. Ghost Reaver with 2x Vinktar flask is a must. Try to get legacy Vinktar - it will save you skill points and you dont have to have 2 Vinktars. Take double curse - Warlord for mana and hp drain and Poachers Mark to fill up your Vinktar flasks fast. ...dont know how are you getting power charges...

For Call of the Brotherhood you need Cold Penetration + Herald of Ice to get through yellow or boss fights fast.

Dont get rid of Eye of Chayula - it is along with Vinktar and Dream Fragments your best friend.

Take crit + spell dmg dagger and to other hand put es shield with crit chance. Use Whirling Blades + Fortify + Attack Speed. With that you should reach 9k es and be able to fight Izaro in 3rd stage (Vinktar included).

When you get more currency go for Legacy Vinktar - saves you slot for flask and 6 skill points. Shavrones save you 6 skill points. Set up your item loot filter and try to chance Skyforth or buy those boots as well - some people thinks it gives "immunity" to stun.. no, its false, you still need eye of chayula.

Use 2x Energy from Within. Other one put instead of Instability.

Check my tree to get idea where to go if interested.

gl hf

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dudiobugtron wrote:

One other thing I noticed is that you have basically no defensive flasks. And 2 quicksilvers!

For the lab, try swapping out the silver flask and one quicksilver, and pop in something like a granite of iron skin, and a stibnite flask. You should basically be able to facetank Izaro with Vaal Pact, LL gem, 8k ES and 60k dps with your 4 flasks, and arc will just auto-kill any plebs that spawn to refill your flasks.

Just make sure you stand in close to him so the stibnite gets him, and also run away when the green circle comes.

Ok, yes, obviously you're right. Too many offensive flask. I'm a dps junky. So, I replaced silver with rumi's. Along with CwDT lvl1 + Tempest shield I have 54% block chance. And I went for a basalt instead of stibnite since I don't have any evasion. The only problem is that basalt has one use before recharging and stibnite has 3. I'm gonna think about that. Another idea that came to mind is tossing immortal call and link CwDT lvl1 + Tempest Shield + Arc + Blind support. The problem with this solution is that blind has only 10% chance. I will see into that too. Anyways, with all those changes I tried merc lab and I dare to say it went pretty well. Not walking in the park but obviously better than before. I'll try an easy uber sometime. Today looks good.
Another thing, I tried merc lab twice. One with arc and one with lightning tendrils. LT gave me 110k dps! Still I wasn't facetanking him. With LL support + warlord's mark(60%reduced effectiveness against bosses) I got 2.8% leech and still wasn't leeching fast enough. I don't understand how some people do it with 10k es and incinerate. They leeching faster than es recharging itself! Again thanks for your advices.

As for the legacy stuff, there are no legacy stuff in porphecy neither such currency in my stash :D I have to work with what I have. But a non-legacy Vinktar is something that I need to consider.

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kalkas wrote:

No it's not a bad thing since there are plenty of other maps and map mods. But lab? There's only one. I don't feel like it's a balanced thing if it is made only for some builds.

What about Atziri? Dominus? Sallazzang? Spinner of False Hope?

What about Oba's Cursed Trove?

What about Shavronne's lightning thorns? I'm particularly salty about this since it's the only fucking instance of lightning thorns I've come across.

What about all of the other content that is gauranteed in the area regardless of possible area mods?

No single build should be able to do all content. And content doesn't refer to just possible area mods, it refers to the areas as well.

There will, and should be, builds that cannot do Atziri, Uber Atziri, Izaro, and some maps.

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kalkas wrote:

And the problem of course are not the traps. It's the fight with Izaro. And the last phase? OMG Jesus Christ, I can't imagine my character winning this fight.

Yet all of mine can and do do it. I've only died to Izaro for not having sufficient hit points or recovery rate.

Izaro is the easiest part of the entire lab. All of my builds have more trouble with Argus than I do with Izaro. Argus hits like a truck, but he only threatens my characters when he enrages, meaning he hits like a truck that can get to max speed in one second. Izaro doesn't do that. Izaro can be altered if you deal with the possible variables.

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kalkas wrote:

So narrow and tight and so heavy physical damage. Man, there is not a solution for every build.

The traps aren't always going 100% of the time in every possible part available to them. Spinning blades move, flying disc shits move, and the spike holes only activate when you step on them. So if you have fast movement, you can avoid them, regardless of whether you got teleported (which is a sign that you're either lagging or have bad character control) or just need space.

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kalkas wrote:

I believe Atziri is more doable for more builds than Izaro but Izaro is more necessary and that's not fair.

Yet all of my characters can stomp Izaro but I don't dare attempt regular Atziri. That says the opposite, and that isn't based on preference or opinion.

Fact is, Atziri is many times harder than Izaro. Why? Izaro has traps, but Atziri has the trio, the duo, and plenty of threatening trash mobs of a higher level.

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kalkas wrote:

Life has regen, ES don't.

Zealot's Oath. Shavronne's Revelation. Scion Ascendancy, one of the witch choices guarantees 1% ES regen. Inquisitor has a 4% ES and 4% mana regen while on consecrated ground, called Pious Path.

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kalkas wrote:

And no, running a few seconds and you're back to full plan isn't available with Izaro.

Never said or implied it was available for Izaro. I just said it is available. This means you have to find a way to make it work for Izaro or for you to not need it.

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kalkas wrote:

Life can go BM also.

Life going BM is suicide. The only instance that something might be worthwhile is Arctic Armor, but even then it is only against physical and fire damage.

Being able to reserve on mana and life is HUGE. You can get almost twice as many reservations out of it.

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kalkas wrote:

Life have flasks.

Life has flasks. ES has recharge.

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kalkas wrote:

Life is way more cheap.

Already mentioned that, and more. Life is the go-to before end-game content unless you're really good and get good loot.

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kalkas wrote:

Life shits on chaos damage.

Not as hard as CI.

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kalkas wrote:

Life have leech without the need to take 2 notable passives in every fcking build you make.

Ghost Reaver was one keystone, last I checked.

If you're referring to Vaal Pact, that is a matter of leech rate, not leech. Some CI builds can go without GR and VP and rely on recharge alone.

No regen, no leech, no ES gain on hit, just recharge.

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kalkas wrote:

Life has life gain on hit mechanic.

So does ES. ES gain on hit jewels.

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kalkas wrote:

And of course the biggest advantage: stun and freeze.

ES grants a 50% chance to avoid stun so long as you have ES, so a CI build always has 50% stun avoidance. According to the wiki, this is a separate thing. So technically, if you got another 50% stun avoidance, your stun avoidance is equivalent to 75%. That's HUGE.

As for chill, freeze, shock, and other effects, there are uniques that allow for it to be based on either a percentage of ES, mana, or immunity entirely.

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kalkas wrote:

Hell, even the "per strength" and "per intelligence" point bonus is better for life.

No. 300 intelligence only gives life 150 mana, which it doesn't usually need. 300 intelligence gives ES 60% increased maximum ES and 150 mana.

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kalkas wrote:

And what ES has? Bigger pool with tons of currency which is useless in fights like Izaro and reserve life ONLY with a specific item.

That's the point of low-life ES. You have to have one of TWO unique items. Shavronne's Wrappings or Solaris Lorica.

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kalkas wrote:

Oh oh and the stun avoidance *now people laughing*. No thanks, life is way better tha ES.

You saying something doesn't make it true.

I've offered plenty of examples to prove you wrong, but it seems to me that you both don't know what you're talking about and are talking out of your rear.

Life has regen, but ES doesn't? False.

Life can go BM? Sure, if they're stupid. No character benefits more from going BM life and no reservations than compared to sticking with mana and using reservations. 12-13% less physical/fire damage taken? x% of physical added as cold? Enemies shattered explode, dealing cold damage to nearby enemies? Blasphemy curses?

Life shits on chaos damage? Only CI does that, because it's immune.

You don't know what you're talking about.

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kalkas wrote:

Or a non-summoner ES build without Ghost Reaver and Vaal Pact?

CI crit trapper. Hegemony made it work and it stomps in PvP.

There are also versions that stomp in PvE, without using the currently broken meta poison trap 999x dipping bullshit.

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Natharias wrote:

You don't know what you're talking about.

Ok you made some good points there although you gone a little mad. Maybe I said something that got you but it's ok. I don't mind. I would like to lay some counter-arguments there cause I don't believe you proved me wrong as you say. And maybe all the things you said sound true only because I did make myself absolutely clear.

When I say life has something whereas ES don't I mean that life has this something inherently without the need of some unique, expensive unique, unique with a big downside or the need to spend a lot of passive points.
Regen for example. Yes, I'm aware of Zealot's Oath. Have you seen the passive tree lately? All the good regen passive are to far away from ES passives. Having a huge ES pool with the regen that life can have (>10%) means that you're out of passives for other defenses and damage. No, you can't achive the regen that life has with the cost the life pays, whether that cost is a unique or a lots of passives.

Let's take the other things in order.

Ok, about the content. All builds can't do all content although I insist that lab is a must have where all other content I consider them a bonus. And yes, maybe I underestimate Atziri. Probably a lot harder that Izaro. Honestly I never managed to kill her.

You must probably joking about life can't go BM. I never done it myself but there are plenty youtube videos that prove it can be and those builds are OP. Really OP. You should check it. And to get twice as many reservations, as you say, without BM mean that you'll spend a lot of passives in reduced mana reserve passives. Those reservation merely balance the fact that you spend less passive on damage and defense.

Flasks against recharge. Again flasks can be used IN the battle, recharge no.
And ok, maybe there are CI builds that don't have GR, VP, ES on hit. Hard to believe. Hard to believe not that they exist but they are viable enough for end-game. And by the way, you can't compare life gain on hit with ES gain on hit from jewels. Life gain on hit has way bigger numbers AND it can be used with spells. ES on hit is just useless. Maybe it won't in the future.

Solaris Lorica? Useless.

And as for the stuns, you can't avoid stun-lock just with the 50% stun-avoidance. Again, also useless.

No man, life has way more advantages than ES. I'm open to counter-arguments but gave me none.

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kalkas wrote:

And I went for a basalt instead of stibnite since I don't have any evasion. The only problem is that basalt has one use before recharging and stibnite has 3. I'm gonna think about that.

Blind halves Izaro's chance to hit. With no evasion, he will have a 95% chance to hit. With blind, it will be 47.5%. Works pretty decent even with no evasion.

"

Another thing, I tried merc lab twice. One with arc and one with lightning tendrils. LT gave me 110k dps! Still I wasn't facetanking him. With LL support + warlord's mark(60%reduced effectiveness against bosses) I got 2.8% leech and still wasn't leeching fast enough. I don't understand how some people do it with 10k es and incinerate. They leeching faster than es recharging itself! Again thanks for your advices.

That's like 3k ES per second you should be leeching (a bit less or more depending on his resistance and your penetration). That should definitely be enough though. Are you able to facetank him in the first fight?

Actually arc mustnt lack at single target damage if you get the right equip and would make a better skill tree.

I had the following stats as assassin:
250k dps (without any flask)
11k es
Grace + ghost reaver + vaal pact + permanent freezing monsters and some flasks for defense.
So my defense was good enough to do most content and hit lvl 97 on hc.

Ofc I used in the end Skyforth since it's BIS, but you can generate charges also with orb of storms and use eye of chayula.

Kinda wondering how you can only get 8k es with a damn shield.

But well.. what I wanna say is, arc profits a lot from good equip.. more than many other skills.. spend currency, improve your skill tree and single target problems will be the past (was able to freeze most bosses, and that with only 50% dmg converted).