My Overall Feedback

General Open Beta Release Thoughts; Through Current Patch.




Disclaimers;

English is not my primary language, I attempt to write in english as it is much more universal. Attack my syntax and spelling at your own risk.

Contain's no TL;DR. Please attempt to read as much of it as you can stomach, before commenting.

I'm not a horribly prolific reader or writer. I will leave plot critism somewhere in the ballpark of not my place to say. I do however have a few things to note about the campaign, and most of it relates back to maps, as these mob types are not inherently balanced. Many of the mobs, such as rhoas, void bears and soldiers, likely the three most controversial, Imo, mobs in the game, spawn in large open-ish maps, which is a trade off for them being, inherently, extremely powerful. The issue with this concept, is you port them into small maps, with geometry and limited view, combine this with an issue of a large UI and you have a very dangerous issue. These mobs can smack you before you can react, and quite often, it is instant death.

The issue being, there is no functioning passive defense that scales sufficiently for two of the above mobs. Armor/evasion are fine, evasion is almost perfect, armor, less so. Now, for a small tangent, I believe that making armor and evasionarmor equal is a bad move. Why? Well it's quite simple, an str user using armor will always have more hp then an IR user, therefore taking away quite a bit of the reasoning to use and have IR. Armor is balanced around having a hole in the defense because it has an inherently higher HP then the evasion user. On the other hand, there come's the fact that "It's Evasion not Armor, why should EvasionArmor be better then ArmorArmor" Well it's quite simple. The devs have, up until this point, not addressed the fact that EVASION, not EvasionAcro, is not a viable build or passive defense. Most mobs destroy it in seconds, it lacks the passive elemental/spell defense of phase acrobatics, and still suffers from evasionacro's weakness, which is auto-hit-charge-slams.

Now, before I delve into the armor-evasion-keystone dependancy issues, I wish to address the mob point first. When it comes to maps, and smaller, tighter, less maneuverable maps, certain mobs, with certain affixes, are instant death. I don't know about anyone else, but I find that some mobs, need to be rebalanced with maps in mind. Would welcome discussion on this, on rather the entire slate of map-mobs need to be revamped and tweaked specifically for maps, or rather individuals simply need to be tweaked. Particulars among the crowd are rhoas, soldiers, void bears and the infamous ranged miscreations. All of them are, on their own, in a white version, balanced. However, combine a map like Vaal Pyramid, with a multi-pro hasted void bear, and you turning a corner into it, and I gurantee, 90% of the community would be dead on that step, as I have died to it a few times, and better players, with better gear, have also. The tentacle shooters, in certain maps, with certain mobs, combined with their horrendous range, and incredibly attack speed, also constitute instant death, however these are much rarer. Rhoas simply kill everyone equally, there is no defense against being shield charged by 10-15 of these guys when entering a room on a fleet map, or if they have a haste mod in their pack. I simply find it difficult to believe that it is intended that certain mobs on certain maps with certain affixes basically means reset the map, as it is not worth the risk/reward. So take of this what you will, I am interested on seeing everyone's thoughts on this subject.
Now for everyone's favorite topic-of-mine.

Evasion vs Armor. Or I should say, Evasion Armor vs Evasion Acro vs Evasion Vs ArmorLife.

I'll start with a short introduction that outlines what each defense is.
EvasionArmor is Evasion converted to armor via IR, Evasion Acro is Evasion with Acro and likely arrow dodging, Evasion is Evasion with no Keystone Dependancy, and ArmorLife is Armor and Life.

Passive defense vs active defense:
Passive defense is for those moments where you unavoidably get hit unexpectedly IE desync rocks, rhoas from under your UI, etc. Active defense is where you actively play, maneuver and manipulate the situation in order to protect yourself.

Now to filter out the primary, secondary and tertiary passive defenses (I personally use the 50-35-15 division, where primary is 50%, secondary 35% and tertiary 15% of your passive defense effectiveness. This isn't an exact number breakdown, but rather my way of rating how these defenses interact with your survivability. Second, HP/Resists are tied, as they are rarely exclusive on gear, and while seperate stats, resists are easy to stack on gear and have life at the same time.

EvasionArmor:
HP/Resists, Regen/leech, Armor. Primary, secondary and tertiary.

Now, people wonder why armor is unloved and unliked, called useless. It's because, in the few cases you need it, 90% of builds, will never have it. There are many builds built to specifically boost armor, however, they all require active defense, which invalidates the point of having armor, as it is a passive defense. Sure, you don't need complete immunity to everything, but having a passive defense that is worth something on its own, on its own two feet, as a viable primary form of passive defense, is necessary. Not only is it necessary for build diversity, it is also necessary for power creep reasons.

Now, as to why I put HP/Resists as primary defense, and to a lesser degree, regen as a secondary. HP is the only true, universal, passive defense in this game. It is the sole reason why everyone stacks absurd amounts of HP. It is the only defense for that-which-is-unforseen. Now, with the recent change to armor, making it equal in protection to evasionarmor, the game has shifted, meta wise. Str armor was already stronger then evasionarmor in most cases, as due to the innate str requirements, it gave quite a hefty HP boost; now it gives both the hp boost, and competes for the highest armor count aswell. While I agree IR is a cornerstone for some builds, and is a floater too big for the bowl, so to speak, it can't go away. Too much is balanced upon the assumption that it exists.
That being said, now that armor is equal to evasionarmor, could we possibly give some kind of love specifically to evasionarmor users? I don't see how this would break the game, as if the love received somehow enables armor-based passive defenses being viable, even if it is strong for maras, it becomes a deviation in the meta, which is highly needed.

EvasionAcrobatics:
HP/Resists, Acrobatics, Regen/leech.

The important thing to note in this, is specifically, that evasion is not even there. The only thing in there is acrobatics. Why? Because acrobatics can dodge spells and is static over all mobs. Leech/regen suffers here because when hit, you take large hits, rather then moderate to moderate-high hits, which is more preferential to the use, application and manipulation of leech. It is worthy of note to say that you can circumnavigate this to a degree with quality leech and/or vaalpact.

Again, acrobatics is close, and so is evasion, to making the list, however, it can't be considered the primary passive defense, when the mobs that hit hard normally, and are dangerous to armor users, rhoas, shield charge mobs; STILL AUTO-HIT. Simple as that. That fix right there, would put evasionacrobatics into a proper secondary defense slot. If you also messed with the evasion atrophy system, and tweaked the DR curve on chance-to-dodge, making it possible, with heavy investment, to dodge most hits, with minimal hp investment, you would have the only form of passive defense in this entire lot. So kudos to the progress in one of these the evasion-viability fixes.

Evasion
HP/Resists, Leech, regen

Ok, at this point, I am trying hard not to rage. Yes I split leech/regen for this specific example, simply because, in above examples, they were close enough in effectiveness alone and combined, and compared to others, that they could be considered the same. However with evasionevasion, without either IR or acro, the DR that comes from said evasion, is so close to 0, its almost pitiful. Yes, somewhat mitigated by Arrow Dodging, which is a broken keystone to begin with (Double chance to evade ranged projectiles with no downside?).
I simply have nothing to say about this defense besides that it doesn't work. It is inferior by yards, miles and leagues from either of the above keystones. It needs to bring something unique and powerful in and of itself to the table.

ArmorLife
HP/Resists, Leech/Regen, Armor.

Look familiar? At this point in time, ArmorArmor is wholly superior to evasionarmor, as a passive defense. The reasoning for this is that passive defense-wise, the marginal value gained by evasions innate multiplicity with dexterity, is severely and completely outweighed by the huge HP boost given by the str needed for said armor user to use armor.
Not only that, but the higher HP means a more effective leech and a more effective regen, all meshed together in the fact that this all exists in a place where regen is most plentiful.
This is an example of a perfect passive defense set up. It is also, not a coincidence, that it is the class/attribute built around HP.

Conclusion:

The issue with armor, evasion and HP is that only one of these three actually constitutes a passive defense. While yes, both armor and evasion can be made to work, it is normally so horribly inefficient, that it's almost laughable. Most notable to recognize is Zaku's work with armor, and it both exemplifies why it's bad and why it's broken. He made a build to capitalize on armors strengths, however, at the same time, he admits, that it takes both endurance charges and enfeeble to put armor simply on par with HP, and he then admits, that you must stack quite a large amount of HP on top of that. I am not sure on the continuing viability of this build, as not only did damage ramp up noticably, but granites were nerfed quite heavily.

Though do note Zaku, I do not disclaim armor as unviable as a defensive measure, it simply fails in its intended purpose of passive defense. Your work is admirable, but it demonstrates why armor is a flawed concept, it is a passive effect that requires a large amount of active-time investment in order to make it WORK, and even then it is wholly inferior to HP/Leech as a passive-active defense.

So while my experiments recently with armor, evasion, acrobatics and IR have been interesting, none of them can compete, simply in both practice and paper, with the passive and active defenses provided by the HP/leech combo.

Energy Shield/Chaos Innoculation/Chaos Resist Changes, nerfs and assorted goodies.


First off, I have to honestly express my ABSOLUTE disdain for the practice of balancing an ES mod and calling it a "Bug" that it added too much energy shield. I'm sorry, but this practice is commonly called pulling a "Blizzard" or "JayWilson". It's not a big deal, but many of the players I played with, myself included, caught it, and were somewhat disgusted by it. GGG is a great gaming team because they include the community in honest and frank balancing and evolution in the game. Don't change that. It's what made you unique among games, it's why I and others absolutely love the game.
However I digress.

With the nerf to ES mods, exclusively, you have nerfed many many different things then I believe you intended.

I like to say, that I have somewhat, contributed something to the collective awareness of EB-not-being-terrible, at least to those who remember some of my work. However, with the gutting of discipline, ES mods and clarity, I find it ... hard to find a reason to go EB. The % auras are powerful, but at the same time, BM offers completely superior resource management.

Before, patches and patches ago, I was able to make, with top tier gear, a build that ran completely mana independant on regen. 2 Clarity nerfs, an ES mod nerf and a discipline gutting later, and despite how many times I put the numbers into my spreadsheets, a good 85% of all of my builds are simply broken. They do not work. They do not work conceptually, nor in practice. I understand you needed to nerf CI, however, like I said in posts leading up to .10, I feared for the builds caught in the crossfire, so to speak. Unfortunetly, I was correct. EB is a shell of what it was, and is now relegated to an even more niche use. I simply don't see why a nerf to CI needed to have these ES mod changes AND the discipline nerfs. It's plain to see you absolutely gutted CI from what it used to be, however the issue is, you did so much so fast with such a lack of testing, it's impossible to determine which of these factors need to go and which don't. As one of the most avid lovers of EB, I simply say with sorrow, that it doesn't work like it used to. It is inefficient, it is broken, it's concept is now useless compared to what it once was. Is it viable? Yes, however it is now in the same truck as EB+CI. Viable, but so horribly inefficient in so many of it's previous domains, that I am sad to see it go.

Chaos Resists and Chaos Penalty
Must I point out, like so many others have done, why this just doesn't work?

Chaos Innoculation
I haven't rolled a CI toon, but from my observations, this build has been nuked, from orbit, with a nerf so hard that its use is so niche and so inferior to typical life, that as the general population tries it a lil, that this keystone will fade from popular view and use, save for the few die-hards that still exist. Maybe I am wrong, but even if I am, it has been relegated to a 100% life simulation. There is no deviation or change from life on/in this keystone now. One of the two ways of previously playing this game, just got homoginized.

Power-Creep:
An age-old nemesis to anyone and anything involved in balancing. Games are defined, remembered and loved for how they deal with Power-Creep.
Two issues are foremost among power-creep issues in this game, they are Leech and Blood Magic;
They both stem from the fact that as the monster damage numbers scale, they do so without regard to armor and ehp. This brings the average ehp of a min/max user closer and closer to one at a passive stand-still. The closer to 1 that a persons ehp is, the better leech and blood magic is, because the closer to 1, the more of a sponge the person is. (Sponge-meta, in gaming terms, the term used to describe a character, concept or build that rapidly replaces lost HP).
People are often talking about nerfing Blood Magic, when in actuality, blood magic isn't the offender. As I pointed out above, the repeatedly neglect of attention to the armor issue, the continued nerfing of mana related nodes and the ability to make regen work in and of itself, have made BM OP.
Instead of nerfing BM, can we manipulate the power creep?
Add more mana related nodes, buff those in existance, stop generically upping the mana cost on bloody everything. Which is another point in and of itself, why is the only way to nerf, change or balance something, in most cases, to vanilla add more mana cost?
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Last thoughts;

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[I reserve the right to add more to this OP if it ever so happens that anyone of importance looks at it]

nice one dude, you manage to sum up alot of the things, and even trying out alot different builds, to that, cheers!
i do agree that warrior side is way too OP because everyone goes for hp, and the current defence(or the lack of it) is forcing people to go hp tank so they dont get instant death from monsters.
i understand the complications when you buff or nerf stuff, this is why alot of dev do small changes to try out before making big changes.
thanks for writing it all down, it sure took alot of time. :)

"

BlazingDawn wrote:

nice one dude, you manage to sum up alot of the things, and even trying out alot different builds, to that, cheers!
i do agree that warrior side is way too OP because everyone goes for hp, and the current defence(or the lack of it) is forcing people to go hp tank so they dont get instant death from monsters.
i understand the complications when you buff or nerf stuff, this is why alot of dev do small changes to try out before making big changes.
thanks for writing it all down, it sure took alot of time. :)

This is somewhat typical, the devs normally do test small changes, and proceed cautiously, however this patch, with the ES and CI changes, are the exact opposite of that behavior and indicitive of why said behavoir never ends well.

They drastically changed ES/CI in general, with very little testing and even less feedback.

A nice read, you invested a lot of time, thanks for the effort ;)

+1,000,000

Very good synopsis on defenses.

I believe everything will be solved, or made solvable, by scaling everything down in the game. Armour will never, ever, ever, by its very nature, work in a meta where off screen affixes can wipe out 6k life in less than a second. Life stacking is, by its very nature, the only effective form of defense, and when that is not even enough, what else is left?

The problem is the direction PoE has taken over the last several patches. At the games core everything scaled to the size of a number, not its relationship to other numbers. Then, the game is balanced around the possibility of big numbers being "OP," thereby necessitating even more investment into making even bigger numbers. This is, unfortunately, the opposite of diversity. One flavor of build to rule them all, with a few different skills to encourage different play styles.

I've read the entire thing, and essentially I 100% agree with the analysis and conclusions you've made, EspiIon. In fact, my dual-wield Ranger has around 5k armor (with Grace!) and I just don't care to sink any more passives into armor nodes. I'd be better off with more damage and more life/regen/leech.

CanHasPants makes the claim that I also want to make: scale everything downwards. I've said this, and I'll say it again, but with the introduction of OB, everything non-player related (passives/skills/attributes/mechancis) has been scaled upward that promoted the power creep. I'm talking about the increase in damage that mobs do now with their increased life they have and the density they come in. Combined with this chaos penalty and ES/skill nerfs, it has created the situation where HP/regen/leech (+ some armor/ES) is by far the most superior defense and starts stifling build diversity. Builds that were funky but viable in CB are now rendered useless in OB. When 2000 HP was considered decent after finishing Merciless, 3000 is considered the norm.

I hope that something is done to boost all classes to help counter the upscale with mobs. This would also address many of the issues presented here and everywhere else on the Beta Feedback forums.

They should lower incoming damage by a percentage (15% or so?) as a first offer.

Yes. Long one but worth reading.

Very nicely put. I agree with everything you wrote.

Great post, very much worth reading. It seems like some of the changes for open beta were hastily made last minutes decisions, and we're going to suffer from it until they decide to go back on some of them.