Stop letting Inquisitor's Inevitable Judgement penetrate player's own resistance vs reflect

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Demonoz wrote:

[long winded puff'n'stuff redacted]
With great power comes great responsibility...

Yeah it cost me a whole 1c for my merc izaro kill. GREAT responsibility there.

Oh man - it really took this long for people to get it?

Inevitable Judgement is a very well designed and balanced noteable - it has a huge upside and a downside you have to be aware of, which is great!

You ignore all enemy resistances on crit and can obliterate any boss in the game with it, but you can't easily do elemental reflect maps and have to watch out for the occasional reflect rare.

Great design - i love it!

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Dan_GGG wrote:

Reflected damage is never counted as a crit, so this shouldn't happen.
... So if Inevitable Judgement ever applied to non-critical hits you would absolutely be able to bypass your own resistances. Reflected damage can penetrate your resistances too.

Inevitable judgement does apply to non-crits:

"

Critical Strikes ignore Enemy Elemental Resistances
Non-Critical Strikes penetrates 10% of Enemy Elemental Resistances

The OP is saying it is penetrating 10% of his own Elemental Resistance, even though he is not an enemy. Well, at least the OP was saying that, but is now unsure.

Thank you so much for the clarification....now i really know wasn't going insane afterall.

https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1042826/page/1

https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/11707/filter-account-type/staff/page/12#p3069858

https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/969535/p8227092#p8227092

This doesn't square. I was always under the impression that reflect damage did not penetrate both the monster and the player. I cannot find an explicit quote from Mark that says "Reflected damage cannot penetrate" but it's hard to imagine, based on experience with the game, that it does.

Regardless, if the above statements are true, then "on-hit" is being used ambiguously, and it could use some clarification as to what parts of a hit qualify as reflectable.

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Uvne wrote:

https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1042826/page/1

https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/11707/filter-account-type/staff/page/12#p3069858

https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/969535/p8227092#p8227092

This doesn't square. I was always under the impression that reflect damage did not penetrate both the monster and the player. I cannot find an explicit quote from Mark that says "Reflected damage cannot penetrate" but it's hard to imagine, based on experience with the game, that it does.

Regardless, if the above statements are true, then "on-hit" is being used ambiguously, and it could use some clarification as to what parts of a hit qualify as reflectable.

Here was my complete logic on reflect:
1. Reflected damage comes from a damage source. That source is you, the game returns that damage to the source, hence that damage is returned to you.

2. That damage source has particular tags to which the reflected version would inherit those very same tags. Hence allowing players to dodge reflect from a spell if they have a chance to dodge spell, because the damage would be tagged with "spell". Likewise, players would dodge an attack with regular dodge instead of spell dodge, because the reflect is tagged with attack rather than spell.

3. The reflected damage itself is a non-hit damage value like the passive from a scold's bridle, it is able to proc CWDT because cwdt is calculated in relation to damage taken and has no relation to hits. But it is not going to result in repeated chaining of tempest shield procs and other similar things along the line .

4. Following up on #3, since reflect is non-hit damage, it cannot crit, because for a crit to exist, the hit must be able to be rolled, and since it is a non-hit, no hits are rolled, thus reflect damage is not considered critical damage even when sourced from a critical strike.

5. Following up on the previous. Inquisitor's Inevitable Judgement's 10% elemental damage penetration is a modifier that applies to "non-critical strikes"; reflect falls directly into this category and has nothing to do with being hit. Likewise if you take a Passive node like Heart of Flames, you will penetrate your own fire resistances by 3% when it comes to reflect calculations.

6. In regards to the linking of a elemental penetration gem; the only things that reflected damage inherits and gets used for calculation purposes is: the tags of the source(projectile,attack,spell,etc), x% of the damage taken by monster, the damage type (phys,fire,cold, or lit), and its ownership (to whom the damage will be resolved to). The % penetration from a penetration gem is not taken into account in the calculation of reflect because the effect is local to the original spell/attack and not an attribute of the owner whom the damage will be resolved to (meaning you); hence this is why Inevitable judgement will apply the penetration to players when it comes to reflect, but not the penetration gem!

If a GGG mod reads this, feel free to confirm/correct/improve my understanding of reflect here, I think it will make it much more clearer for the community in the future.

If you use the Lioneyes unique Bow (hits can't be evaded) and the damage get's reflected, you won't be able to evade the reflect.

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SIQI wrote:

[...]
5. Following up on the previous. Inquisitor's Inevitable Judgement's 10% elemental damage penetration is a modifier that applies to "non-critical strikes"; reflect falls directly into this category and has nothing to do with being hit. Likewise if you take a Passive node like Heart of Flames, you will penetrate your own fire resistances by 3% when it comes to reflect calculations.
[...]

Unlike Heart of Flames it reads:

"

Non-Critical Strikes Penetrate 10% of Enemy Elemental Resistances

So it should never ever apply to yourself.