Cluster Trap

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Last bumped on Dec 6, 2018, 7:58:12 AM
I would like to use cluster trap with trap passive skill gem and mirror arrow active skill gem combined, but it doesn't want to work properly, because it lays only 4 traps at a time, and i can only repeat this one more time, so i can only put 8 traps in total. Although the description of the cluster trap skill gem says i can lay 5 traps 3 times, which makes 15 traps in total. I don't understand why its working this way, maybe i missed something out, but i hope not, and it will be fixed in the future, so i can clone myself 15 times :D
I have several questions about the mechanics of Cluster Traps:

1) What is the base radius within which traps are randomly dispersed?

2) How does increased area of effect (as provided by Carcass Jack or other equipment, the Increased Area of Effect support gem, passives, etc.) affect Cluster Traps?

* If the traps within the cluster are AOE, does increased AOE increase the AOE of individual traps within the cluster? If so, is this effect the same as if the trap were not in a cluster?

* Does the radius within which traps are randomly dispersed increase with increased area of effect?

3) How are critical hits applied? Is there one critical hit roll for the entire cluster in which case all traps in the cluster either crit or do not, or are critical hits separately rolled for each trap in the cluster, in which case, some traps in the cluster may crit while others may not?
Last edited by hankinsohl on Apr 4, 2016, 2:22:56 AM
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Csabie wrote:
I would like to use cluster trap with trap passive skill gem and mirror arrow active skill gem combined, but it doesn't want to work properly, because it lays only 4 traps at a time, and i can only repeat this one more time, so i can only put 8 traps in total. Although the description of the cluster trap skill gem says i can lay 5 traps 3 times, which makes 15 traps in total. I don't understand why its working this way, maybe i missed something out, but i hope not, and it will be fixed in the future, so i can clone myself 15 times :D


old post. But this was never answered so..

Default max traps at one time is 3.
And you throw one at a time.

Cluster trap allows 5 more traps at one time, for 5+3base= 8 max.
And throws +3 traps, for 4 thrown at one time.

So, you can throw 4x4=8 traps.


With mirror arrow trap, you can throw again after first 8 activate, for 12 mirrors. (and with trap cd/MA duration, 16...20.. clones..)
Preparing for the Flashback event i was leveling a trapper saboteur to figure out what i wanna build up and once i've gathered my thoughts on the Cluster Traps usage i want to share them. I am not going to consider the very endgame situations, mostly i am going to cover the leveling process and realistic early to casual mapping without min/maxing.

So for leveling i was mainly using two setups:
Fire nova mine - Minefield - Trap and Mine Damage
and
Lightning trap - Cluster Traps - Added Lightning Damage - Elemental Focus

During whole leveling process i was constantly comparing those two to see which has which pros and cons for myself, and i felt that Cluster Traps was making traps feel undeservedly so much worse than any mine build. To be exact, the spread is what making it very clunky and ineffective in my opinion.

The big deal is that Minefield makes you place 3 mines exactly in the same pattern every time and very close to each other so you get a very concentrated point of your damage source you can just get in action with one click. Aoe skills (like FNM) in this case are very clear to see how much do they cover and also they leave no blind spots; targeting skills (like GC or Arc for example) also feel good both on the packs, covering them quite well, and on single target, no matter where the mob (or boss) is standing.

However Cluster Traps spreads four traps in a random pattern you can not predict at all, and traps quite often are just so far away from each other that mobs in a pack don't trigger all of them, or (which happens not often, but it's not a very rare case) they don't even trigger any of them.
While that can be fixed by either having the Chain Reaction ascendancy node or picking up "increased Trap Trigger Area of Effect" nodes (which have very very very weird positions on the tree and result in a huge damage loss), you will have a lot of points invested into that and before you can afford it, leveling with traps is extremely painful.

Other thing I would like to touch upon is boss/fat rares fighting. Using a single-thrown trap skill is a joke since it's not always possible to hit with it and the damage is absurd compared to what you can get with a 3L fire nova mine setup on single target (which is more powerful than any trap setup you can get in both single target and clearing until maybe endgame jk gc mines scaling with statsticks). So we decide to use Cluster Traps. Even if we bypass the issue of triggering all traps by either way, it's still very weak because of the immense trap spread of Cluster Traps which results in only 1-2 traps hitting the mob. While lightning trap is most likely to hit the target with projectiles from each of the traps (but still in 1 out of 3 packs it leaves 1-2 mobs not hit and alive), using other trap skills like Fire or Ice trap is terrible since it simply hits with 1-2 traps in average due to low skill aoe. Can be fixed by increasing aoe, but those nodes are exactly on the opposite side of the tree from the trigger aoe nodes. More investment into fixing the support gem clunkiness quality of life instead of damage or survivability
Linking spells with a Trap Support to get something that can deal with the spread to do more damage, actually gets you bottlenecked by the huge trap cooldown and is not improving the situation, so in the end there is no reason to do that over using Remote Mine. Remote mine with minefield is just better than any trap skill with cluster traps.

To summarize everything above:
-to kill packs you need to invest a lot of points in trigger aoe (lose damage and survivability on the tree) or get the Chain reaction (which is possible only around lvl55);
-single target with any trap other than a lightning one doesn't work well until you get a lot of "inc aoe" to make most (if not all) traps in a cluster to hit the target;
-leveling with traps is undisputably extremely painful, and mapping depends on pack density and cluster rng way too much.

Cluster spread makes you need a lot of quality of life investment on low levels and thus leaves you behind other builds on both damage and survivability which slows you down drastically. And that quality of life doesn't help out as much as you could expect, but leveling up does. So it makes no sense to invest into those nodes, because as soon as you get this done, you can spec out. It is simply better to use a mine skill without changing anything on your tree.


Spoiler

As for the possible improvement i want to suggest changing the cluster to spread more the further it travels and reduce the initial spread. Say, if you throw the cluster right under your feet, traps don't spread a lot so it gets something more concentrated, and if you throw it at the max range, they spread in some bigger radius (which is kinda realistic).
On the one hand it allows to trade safety for damage on boss fights and on the other hand it creates a flexible playstyle on clearing. This i believe would make a very good change to make leveling with traps a more pleasurable experience while not making it too strong, but also it is a slight gameplay overhaul for mapping without a significant damage output change

Update: Making mid-range toss spread higher than current spread would probably be a sad nerf though, both for leveling and mapping/endgame. The point is something has to be done with it at low levels to make it a better skill for leveling


Update: exact comfort spot that fixes the described issues is getting chain reaction and 60% of inc trigger aoe at "high explosives" notable. But that is really a long path of pain to finishing the cruel lab. Thinking of it, might be a better thing to swap Chain Reaction and Perfect Crime ascendancy nodes to make leveling with traps more viable, and leave the gem as it is right now.
Last edited by peeppo on May 2, 2018, 5:02:08 PM
"Cluster Trap Support" is now useless!

Please bring "cluster trap support" in line with "multiple trap support" now that they are nearly identical.

Cluster trap has a higher "less damage" penalty and mana cost penalty than "multiple traps" but now gives nearly the same functionality. The additional total traps for cluster trap is inconsequential while the damage penalty makes it a useless support now.
Last edited by DeMechanist on Sep 1, 2018, 2:22:15 PM
traps not fun anymore.
you soulda bring back additional trap and throwing speed then nerf saboteur ascendancy.
we have to wait buff traps take another few years? no way.
"
Completed 9 ChallengesDeMechanist wrote:
"Cluster Trap Support" is now useless!

Please bring "cluster trap support" in line with "multiple trap support" now that they are nearly identical.

Cluster trap has a higher "less damage" penalty and mana cost penalty than "multiple traps" but now gives nearly the same functionality. The additional total traps for cluster trap is inconsequential while the damage penalty makes it a useless support now.


I agree.

Current Cluster Trap is not worth to use completely.
Traps with Cluster Trap Support are throwed random point, but AoE trap like Fire trap and Explosive Trap is hard to overlap because distance is far. The support to throw three traps extensively is enough only Multiple Trap.

Cluster Trap should be thrown more densely to be differentiated from Multiple Trap. In exchange for overlap-able by high dense, it has more damage reduction and mana cost increase than Multiple Trap.

I understand that it needed to nerf Cluster Trap for balancing, but the way of current fixing is that Cluster Trap was just changed to weaker Multiple Trap.
This gem is completely gutted

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