Endgame vs. levelling

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NeroNoah wrote:

GGG can't be that centered on the endgame because at the end, only a small fraction of the player base (even those who pay the bills) gets to maps. See how many expansions actually centered around it to see the ROI for that.

so ? again, there is a reason it's the endgame. not everyone reaches it. its the end of the pyramid. and that's ok- I dont see a problem whatsoever. GGG addresses both altoholics and deep map players, as well as atziri farmers (which is another aspect of endgame that doesnt entail maps), etc etc

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There is something wrong with not enjoying the earlier parts of the game.

I dont see the problem. some people enjoy it, and some people don't. if the goal is to reach the endgame you arent going to enjoy the journey- its natural. its just as bad as in other games you mentioned, like D2. in fact, probably worse. tell me of a drop in normal of d2 and d3 you can still use in later difficulties ?

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It's not the only alternative, there are other games out there that have made different stuff and mitigate or even eliminate the whole "endgame thing".

horizontal progression simply does not suit ARPG with tiered item structures and rewards and ladders such as PoE.
you brought up TL2 as an example of something different, but its map system is almost, exactly the same as PoE, except you can also do NG+ (and then NG++ and so on). and TL2 is not even quasi-competitive.

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Rather than "extending" the endgame, I'm arguing that the transition to it should be more smooth and engaging. It's all about player psychology. No one should think too much about the difference. It should be as pleasant as possible.

why ?
thats my question

you care so much about the 'poor player' you dont see the big picture. player isnt a baby. he doesnt need to be coddled

lets look at this
normal ends at level 40 (and Im assuming you dont want to remove normal)

'endgame' starts at maps, which can be accessed from solaris pt 2, at level 64 zone

so you want to smooth the progression of 24 stinky levels and one and a half difficulty progression ? really ?

this is what I don't understand- who are you trying to cater to ?
dedicated player get from 40 to 64 in a few hours.
players who are experienced in poe can get there very fast.

this is why I assumed youre talking about new players- even if you dont like leveling, the amount of time you get from 40 to 64 is little. it's not worth to spend any resources on. even GGG said fuck it and didnt remove cruel. it's simply not worth it.

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It's not even just about casuals at the end of the day. Read the thread. What kind of people comes here and agrees about this. There is nothing hardcore about enduring some unengaging portion of the game before the "best" part comes. If you came here just to criticize something because it caters to the casuals, well, you are just being irrational about it. It's not just about them (even if it benefits them).

I came to criticize an idea that entails 'I want it all and I want it now' mentality. just because something may appear not engaging or mundane, does not warrant its removal. thats like people who dislike walking from one end of the map to another in open world rpgs. and my answer is always 'deal with it'- but of course carebear devs then rollout bullshit 'fast travel'.

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If maps are just the same, why people care a lot more about them than the rest of the game? What's there that people prefer to center on that rather than the rest?

the answer is so simple I didnt think it even needs an explanation- but I will spell it out.
poe is a quasi-competitive game. it has a hard level cap. why do people want to hit 100 or be first on the ladder ? well, probably ego. but- there is nothing higher than maps. maps have the best items, biggest challenges apart of atziri. if there were no maps, then everyone would be in act 4. malachai would be the 'endgame'. 'endgame' is simply a part of game where you can push no further. some people are content with not hitting it, but some want to be among 'the best' and push as hard as they can.

nowhere does it say that part of the game has to be accessible to everyone.

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It's a mere deflection to justify the status quo, ignoring the fact that GGG can't serve to different crowds

huh ?
all I said its a grind both here and there as well. and its true. the amount of time you spend leveling in cruel an half of merciless is laughable compared to the amount of grinding you do, at say, level 85. if a new player cant take another a 'whole another' difficulty, they likely wont be able to take the grind it takes to get from level 89 to 90.

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Disagree if you wish with my suggestions (they are not even the core of the post), the 2/3 that are feedback are the important stuff. Current situation is wasteful.

I did - and I do. the current situation might be wasteful, but wasting resources to simply satisfy the progression from 40 to 64 and flatten tiered system out to horizontal structure is a thousand times more expensive. and for what ?? for who ??? some random person who gets randomly bored ? where's that peter griffin gif ? oh my god who the hell cares ?

Nagel Ring can be used all the way into end game, as well as Eye of Etlitch. Same with Magefists and Sigons.

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grepman wrote:

horizontal progression simply does not suit ARPG with tiered item structures and rewards and ladders such as PoE.
you brought up TL2 as an example of something different, but its map system is almost, exactly the same as PoE, except you can also do NG+ (and then NG++ and so on). and TL2 is not even quasi-competitive.

You know, I wrote mostly about making areas of different levels worthwhile, not about making superior tiers equal to lower tiers. Horizontal because higher areas don't make outright obsolete lower areas. You can keep the tiering, but everything should have a purpose and be relatively engaging.

TL2 is not really that different, that's the reason I mentioned it. That is not competitive is a moot point.

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grepman wrote:

you care so much about the 'poor player' you dont see the big picture. player isnt a baby. he doesnt need to be coddled

lets look at this
normal ends at level 40 (and Im assuming you dont want to remove normal)

'endgame' starts at maps, which can be accessed from solaris pt 2, at level 64 zone

so you want to smooth the progression of 24 stinky levels and one and a half difficulty progression ? really ?

this is what I don't understand- who are you trying to cater to ?
dedicated player get from 40 to 64 in a few hours.
players who are experienced in poe can get there very fast.

this is why I assumed youre talking about new players- even if you dont like leveling, the amount of time you get from 40 to 64 is little. it's not worth to spend any resources on. even GGG said fuck it and didnt remove cruel. it's simply not worth it.

Ah, the carebear approach to talking about features is a game...

See, this a QOL thing, and not everyone likes to just rush through it (think of altaholics, and yes, people that don't play that much). The game outright discourages rerolling as it is (in my opinion).

How do I see it? Assume we start playing something different at level 40. Max area level on the world could be, let's say, 72 (because of the chaos recipe). So you could theoretically play until level 83-85 before maps. And then, if you assume those areas keep being relevant somehow, they could be played at higher levels as farm spots too. The Apex of Sacrifice is an example of how to make areas with low level worth doing, for example.

So no, it's not 24 puny levels, that requires to misread what I wrote. I don't think it'll be that much resources (there are things like Master Missions and Corrupted Areas that scale with level without that much trouble). I think trimming areas and reworking them requires more effort, and it's a wasteful approach if the game is going to jave many acts. The more acts, the more sense it makes what I proposed.

And again, you could even skip normal, like if it was adventure mode in D3: ROS. There are infinite ways to approach that. From 24 levels we could go to 82-85 levels.

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grepman wrote:

the answer is so simple I didnt think it even needs an explanation- but I will spell it out.
poe is a quasi-competitive game. it has a hard level cap. why do people want to hit 100 or be first on the ladder ? well, probably ego. but- there is nothing higher than maps. maps have the best items, biggest challenges apart of atziri. if there were no maps, then everyone would be in act 4. malachai would be the 'endgame'. 'endgame' is simply a part of game where you can push no further. some people are content with not hitting it, but some want to be among 'the best' and push as hard as they can.

nowhere does it say that part of the game has to be accessible to everyone.

Well, I think different (by the way, it was a rhetorical question). Maps are better over normal areas because they add extra degrees of randomization. It's repetitive, but it has bigger variance, so it's harder to get tired of them. Also, it's more difficult in a way that it's not "just numbers".

I'm arguing that some higher degree of randomization should be put earlier, rather than just playing the same thing three times with little differences. Forsaken Masters was well received because it used that kind of approach to adding content. The good stuff of the game could come earlier, rather than put it at the "end". There is always going to be an area that is more valuable than the rest because of the rewards.

The drawback to having few areas that are relevant is that the rest becomes irrelevant.

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grepman wrote:

huh ?
all I said its a grind both here and there as well. and its true. the amount of time you spend leveling in cruel an half of merciless is laughable compared to the amount of grinding you do, at say, level 85. if a new player cant take another a 'whole another' difficulty, they likely wont be able to take the grind it takes to get from level 89 to 90.

I will disagree. Again, it's all comes to degrees of randomization and the effect it has over player psychology. Experience penalty (that I don't necessarily disagree with) and the fact that GGG can't figure out how to make people play different tilesets (that a lot of people are asking anyway) are probably more likely to discourage players. Also, the insane level of spending for sustaining.

ok, so basically you propose an alternative to world content with map-like structure because of more variance. I can see that. I dont agree, but I understand the main reason.

I will just have to agree to disagree. Why- I mostly already wrote- I don't think it's significantly improving the 'grind' and it requires resources. It mostly caters to a new player. And, ironically it will probably devalue actual endgame maps with newbies imo - if they are still there to push to 90s.

I also vehemently disagree PoE discourages rerolls. Im pretty sure I rerolled more toons than in any other game Ive played. and my list is quite large.

I think the main problem with leveling when rerolling in poe is recycling of skills across any toon you make. it's somewhat better now, but still a nuisance. there are specific leveling skills that are just better than anything else. and because you can use anything theres no 'cool' feeling like when you reroll a toon with its class-specific skills in other games. you basically use and re-use skills that are good for leveling for most time. there is no real exploration of skills when you re-roll. a flame totem works as well for shadow as it does for scion witch or marauder or templar when leveling.

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grepman wrote:

ok, so basically you propose an alternative to world content with map-like structure because of more variance. I can see that. I dont agree, but I understand the main reason.

I will just have to agree to disagree. Why- I mostly already wrote- I don't think it's significantly improving the 'grind' and it requires resources. It mostly caters to a new player. And, ironically it will probably devalue actual endgame maps with newbies imo - if they are still there to push to 90s.

About the "it requires resources", I'd say that the whole way the game is expanded right now (trimming zones and changing area levels each time an act is added) is equally or more difficult long term than just working in a procedural solution. Think about what happens if they add one, two or three more acts. Then there is a lot of material from leagues and bosses that are not currently used, and they could be used...Well, I just think that point is not evident (although you could be right, we don't know).

"It mostly caters to the new player" is a poor reason to not do it. Good features have come from that (masters, gem vendors, early use of support gems). Anyway, I told you that altaholics care, and if you read this thread, a lot of mappers care too. It's a problem for everyone, even if you don't think it's a problem. Let's agree to disagree.

By the way, the reason I emphatized less early mapping in my post is to avoid that devaluation. I think a parallel system would work better to avoid burn out, or even like some parallel alternative (like Adventure mode, pre Greater Rifts). If there is early mapping, it should feel different. Like Corrupted Areas.

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grepman wrote:

I also vehemently disagree PoE discourages rerolls. Im pretty sure I rerolled more toons than in any other game Ive played. and my list is quite large.

I think the main problem with leveling when rerolling in poe is recycling of skills across any toon you make. it's somewhat better now, but still a nuisance. there are specific leveling skills that are just better than anything else. and because you can use anything theres no 'cool' feeling like when you reroll a toon with its class-specific skills in other games. you basically use and re-use skills that are good for leveling for most time. there is no real exploration of skills when you re-roll. a flame totem works as well for shadow as it does for scion witch or marauder or templar when leveling.

Well, if the game doesn't allow you to play your builds or some semblance of them until higher levels (I mean, Low Life, CI and crap obviously are not going to be options at low level), it's not really encouraging, but that's another topic. I could say that all the things I talked about make a lot of people stick to one character per league (even if you don't care).

Here is a reddit thread that discusses both topics.

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NeroNoah wrote:

Well, if the game doesn't allow you to play your builds or some semblance of them until higher levels (I mean, Low Life, CI and crap obviously are not going to be options at low level), it's not really encouraging, but that's another topic. I could say that all the things I talked about make a lot of people stick to one character per league (even if you don't care).

Here is a reddit thread that discusses both topics.

is that you in the video ? because the guy in the video makes somewhat different points. like he says he gets bored in 4-5 hours of mapping. and that he rerolls all the time, and doesnt stick to same character. and his core issue, from his words is accessibility to new players- precisely the thing Im so against. I think making poe even more accessible to newer players is about the worst thing you can do to this game.

Nah, it's not me. I just wanted to point out someone discussing skills and level progression, even if flawed. The comments are a lot better. The thread is fairly recent, that's the reason I linked it.

About accessibility...to my understanding, making the game more accessible is not a bad thing if it's not gutted in the process. It's not a zero sum game. Even games like DOTA are becoming more accessible.

High entry barrier is one of those things that seems hardcore, but it's just an annoyance. You can have games like chess that are relatively easy to start to play but hard to master. How deep and challenging remains after a lot of time is a better measure of truly hardcore games.

At least from a "mid-core" player (generally stops leveling 85-90ish), I see 2 "issues" with the leveling game right now:

1: You can't typically level with your end-game build, either due to passive point or gear requirements for it to be effective.

2: Leveling is so quick that it doesn't feel like you're actually making meaningful progress; it instead feels like you're just playing a gear/level treadmill until you make it into the game proper in A4M/maps.

Unfortunately, problem 1 begets problem 2. GGG can't drag out the leveling process too much because many of the most interesting builds only become viable after obtaining 70 levels of passive points. However, leveling too quickly makes the gear you obtain feel meaningless because you're just going to throw it away in an hour for something better. It also makes any interim solutions to not having gear/passives feel like temporary stopgaps rather than an organic part of the evolution of your build.

I don't think just giving people more passives while leveling will really change anything either. Attack based builds are simply inferior to things like flame totem with no gear, and it doesn't make sense to invest a bunch in leveling gear if it's going to be obsolete in 10 levels anyways.

Here is another discussion about levelling and the endgame from a veteran (a lot more centered on builds):

https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/3qep08/extensive_list_of_poe_issues_from_a_vet/

The skill angle is something that I don't feel really capable to touch (I don't go with the meta, :P)

I enjoy PoE and never will be salty about it. I'm in a guild I like, even if I don't come back so often (ppl are great in it, even if some are a bit too much money centric). So be sure that I'll be there next season even if I'm not happy with everything. (yes I'm not a funder or anything but bought like 80+e of stashs and shits so ok...)

I won't argue with OP tho, doing 3 difficulties in a row sucks because as he said: it's bad for people retention, unfun and has no real meaning except increasing artificially lifespan for extreme casuals.

Maps, well, these get old quite fast and are not a challenge anymore, average value is extremly decent and prices are cheap for the unlucky ones who know how to manage their shit.

And about labirinth: imagine someone asks you to write an essay about gardening and you write magnificently about korean philosophy. Even if it's extremly well done it is not what was asked and will get you the weakest grade possible. Good job but no.

Players wanted end game content: They got strongboxes
They asked for end game content: Masters but ok... (p-p-p-powercreep from the side)
They asked for end game content: Random ghosts haunting wraeclast (????, abusers got mirors congratulation during a small era ^^)
They asked for end game content: Act 4 stuff: 30mn/1h content*3 with nothing remotely close to piety/dom runs and a huge grinding map. Div cards is a nice addition that diversify things smoothly but...
They asked for end game content: They got amazing un-HnSesque punishing content AND extreme powercreep.


So yes, my feelings are mixed still :)