Eternal aren't the problem, Mirrors are!
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I've always thought Mirrors were a bad addition to the game. It's arguable whether Eternals should be in the game, but they're certainly much less of an issue without Mirrors existing. Of the two, I think Eternals add more value to the average player's game experience because they have actual uses for items that aren't the absolute best on the server.
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" That's not salt in the wound, it's simply incorrect. The problem has never been permanent leagues - which if you stop and think about it, actually embody the 'grinding gear' philosophy (i.e. grinding endlessly to get that last per cent of power). The problem is that GGG doesn't accept that temporary leagues and permanent leagues need fundamentally different designs. Let me give you a little list of things which fit each league. Permanent: deterministic advancement, open-ended progression with diminishing returns (no level caps, no rewards for 'getting there first'), limited gains to be made from other players (economy lite, if economy at all) Temporary, including races: economy-based and capped advancement, challenges, ranks, points, rewards for those who 'get there first'. I.e. zero sum games, where you should be attempting to get to the top by dragging yourself over the bodies of others in your way. GGG, as a designer, needs to approach standard leagues like they're holding a carrot endlessly just out of reach. Temp leagues that's not an issue - they are, after all, temporary. Perfect items in standard has never been an issue - after all, you've got to have something to strive for. Mixing that with the economy though and capping advancement... is just stupid. Imagine playing Final Fantasy X but instead of single player, you can grind for 1,000 chocobo feathers and trade with one of a thousand different players to get Cadalbolg. Would that feel rewarding? As an aside, there's endless nonsense spouted about how GGG clearly loves one league or another. Trash. It's tantamount to saying 'Daddy loves me best'. But by all means, go ahead and tell yourself you're a special flower ;) | |
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Just to expand on the above, here, to me, is some of the implied messaging of some of the design decisions to each of the leagues (temp including races, of course).
Making it to a capped level Standard: "hey guy, you're here forever, but... We don't want you going any further now you've reached a certain number. Maybe just bin that character." Temporary: "woo! You got to the goal! If you got here first, you're the winner of the whole league! If not, then you may still win something!" Perfect items (and mirrors/eternals) Standard: "here's something to strive to create! At least until one of them is made, then don't bother trying just grind to get a copy." Temporary: "in theory these exist but don't worry about trying to get one while you're here - the point for you is reaching other goals, such as levels and challenges" Removing eternals Standard: "you know we said there's not much point trying for a perfect item after one of that type is made? Well, we just wanted to reinforce that by taking away one of the tools to get there" Temporary: "we want to reinforce that we expect you to rely on other players to win the league, not items per se" Adding RNG in general Standard: "any sense of control you have over your permanent experience is... at best, a mirage" Temporary: "let's make the challenge of getting to goals just a bit tougher!" Needless to say, only one set of messages makes sense to me. | |
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Permanent league existence is a problem to people that worry about the economy. The economy of a permanent league will always be fubar until they add in new tiers or something to give them new to play with. But if you make it high enough to solve the issue at hand, you've got a much different problem, power creep.
I also have no problems whatsoever with people obtaining perfect gear and believe that it is a valid end game goal. What I don't believe though is making the restrictions on meeting that end nearly impossible. As has been stated it is much easier to buy a mirrored piece of gear than it is to craft it yourself. I think that is the problem, more than anything else. I find it difficult to find others that agree with me. I think that if anyone puts in enough time they should be able to craft their perfect gear. With the way drops are though that just isn't possible. The solution in this case, at least for standard would be to add fluency to currency. This would be a deterministic step, and require people being able to buy the higher currencies at the vendor. Such as chaos->regal->exalt->eternal->mirror. Having a set recipe would keep inflation from going astronomically high (if it's cheaper to buy it from the vendor they won't trade for it) and also increase availability for the higher ups, essentially flooding the market with the currency that people want. This may not be a good idea for temporary leagues, but it would work very well in standard. But then I'm all about lowering barriers of entry into the upper 1%, adding competition for people with mirror services and such. Yolo exalting cannot compete with eternal exalting for sheer efficiency. And folks that already have mirrors and mirror services don't really need to try harder to maintain their monopoly. |
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Eternal orbs are gone , end of discussion .
R.I.P 4.B.
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" If you have nothing useful to add, then perhaps it should be the end of discussion for you. And by that I mean, adding a stated position, defending it, etc. You're not GGG, and even GGG wouldn't close a thread unless it went against their rules. |
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" true, and it would be no loss, really. mirrors should be applied to any item once and eternals 3 times before locking that source item for the respective orb. age and treachery will triumph over youth and skill! Last edited by vio on Jul 9, 2015, 4:05:43 AM
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" I dont think that is true actually, and heres why... If you look at the master multimod meta that was around for a bit, what happened is that people with a lot of wealth wanted to create say, a really good bow. so they started alt regaling weapons, and rather than just keep going till they got the perfect one they wanted they would end up with a lot of 'almost' attempts that they would then sell. They would make their own 450 pdps harbinger and in the process end up with 10x 350-430 pdps harbingers that they would then sell. Same thing would happen without mirrors and eternals. Big players with the capital to burn would mass craft and end up with a selection of individual pieces rather than keep rolling over perfectly good items in pursuit of 1 perfect item that then gets mass produced. It would actually be a lot better, because each of those items would be individual and not essentially a bis unique thats cookie cutter and everyone owns, none of them would be perfect, they would have the individuality and imperfections a rare item should have. Crafting for profit would still be a thing its just that everyone ending up with the exact same copy of a perfect item that can never be upgraded would not be a thing, and imo that is good. the main problem with the continued existence of mirrors though is that the only gear every worth mirroring will now be gear already crafted with eternals. Doesnt matter about new mods, there will never be a dagger better than loath bane, never be a bow better than glyph mark, it will just never happen, ever. So all the harm that eternals do, has been done, and removing them doesnt change that at all, its basically pointless on some level to remove them without either removing mirrors or changing how mirrors work. Sure those mirror worthy gears are not perfect any more thanks to new mod tiers, but the reality is that there is now essentially no way to make the new perfect gear, no way to find the new perfect gear, and actually no way to make or find something that even equals a lot of the existing crafted pieces, theyve become like a legacy kaoms, it just cant happen any more, except its worse, theyre a legacy kaoms that can be infinitely copied from the original that 1 guy owns. I absolutely agree about the 3 strike idea, thats for sure another way. Be it 3 copies, 5 copies, whatever, as long as its a small amount if only a limited number of copies can be made of a given item that solves mirrors. They dont actually need to remove them but simply changing them like this is just as good, creates the same benefits. Maybe thats actually better than removing them, because the mechanic still exists but it gets rid of this situation where now certain items are forever, once the next 3 glyph marks are copied, thats it, people need to find a new bow to copy or they need to make another original. A system like that along with the removal of eternals could be awesome for the game. Right now mirrors, you take them to standard and copy a loath bane. Once Bane and Honour Etcher are locked for copying and time has gone along a bit, the only thing ull be able to copy are new crafts. Well, with eternals gone how much does that new craft cost? alts, augs, 1 regal and 3 exalts. Thats the most it can cost, at that point its either the new BiS dagger or its bricked. Well, that can happen anywhere, its not a situation where "only in standard league does someone have 1000 eternals and 1000 exalts to craft a BiS dagger"... no, can happen anywhere someone has 3 exalts. More LIKELY to happen in standard but in a temp league, someone can actually make something that by the standards of the time is worth mirroring and more people may well use their mirrors in temp leagues as a result. With the system at the moment on live standard warps temp leagues in this respect because its extremely rare for enough currency to exist to match the standard league crafts. There was a bow, a dagger, I vaguely remember a tornado wand someone made maybe? Very rare, 2 of those were in hardcore where there was not a better weapon existing in perm hardcore and the hc player base doesnt really care about things beyond the league. Last edited by Snorkle_uk on Jul 9, 2015, 5:52:01 AM
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It never ceases to amaze me that people support nerfs but don't consider that the problem is already done. Even snorkle_UK states the obvious and then misses its implication. The removal of eternals means that the best gear is the best gear for a long time to come. The restriction on mirrors ensures that the weapons stay inside of the current user base. Everybody at the top gets to keep on going, while everybody else suffers the penalties of it. If you wanted to do such a thing, you can't do it without considering a wipe, which I do not think is a very good idea -- otherwise you're just ignoring the implications, and indeed it is worse than legacy gear, because there is a heck of a lot more legacy gear than mirrored items.
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"How people keep saying this when there are new T1 affixes coming up is completely beyond me. Yes, the lack of Eternals will slow down such crafts, they won't be outclassed quickly, but their days are nevertheless numbered. People act as if crafting won't happen anymore. Nonsense. What else would people use Exalts on? What do you think they were used on, before Eternals existed? Crafting isn't dead, it merely lost a leg. When Stephen Colbert was killed by HYDRA's Project Insight in 2014, the comedy world lost a hero. Since his life model decoy isn't up to the task, please do not mistake my performance as political discussion. I'm just doing what Steve would have wanted. Last edited by ScrotieMcB on Jul 9, 2015, 7:38:01 AM
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