Why the "You need more health" paradigm is bad

Funny that the topic looped around to "you need more health/armor/evasion/resists" (aka layered defenses).

I think that's not true. I think people are used to thinking like that because it's the easier way of playing the game.

I saw a video of a guy with a very tanky build (basically his passive tree is just life nodes and block nodes), face tanking everything in the Hall of Grandmasters while nothing could even reduce his health.

It's a great accomplishment as far as build-making goes, and it's definitely a very successful build...

...But anyone could play with that. Even someone who just began playing could use it and be successful. The build's creator mentions that, after a few nerfs, people could actually die if they don't pay attention - but shouldn't everyone die if they don't pay attention?

That's the perfect example of the kind of mentality most of the community has. Focusing exclusively on passive defenses and ignoring how a skilled player could use more active defenses (in its simplest way, moving out of danger) instead, and focus passive points/gear upgrades in things other than just survival.

Lots of people would probably say, "of course that's impossible, you need high layered defenses to survive". I think lots of people aren't as good as they think they are.

"You" can be good as much as you want, but this game (so much blindly defended by some one) in my opinion is VOLUNTARILY programmed to noob kill you (as noobs are the devs) at some time, because they need TIME to bring new content so it's their INTEREST to SLOW YOU down AS MUCH AS THEY CAN (with the exp loss). Otherwise, if you don't die/lose exp, you will finish all the builds that you have in mind BEFORE they bring new content... and so you move t another game and don't buy microtransactions anymore. Free to play? Yes, but FUCKED TO PLAY because they still WANT money.

And so... we have yellow instakiller devourers.... 47 miles long "snakes" made out of chimerals that stack on you from offscreen killing you in half a sec... invisible ultra powerful magnus flameblasts... minara nuclear bombing you with countless zombies....

Offense is the best defense

A dead mob doesn't do any damage. That's why in races most people stack offense over defense. It is also much more fun to play like that.

This one month league I just go full offense and throw myself into groups of enemies with all kinds of modifiers and you know what it is superfun! It feels like one of those classic shoot-em-ups. High paced and always on your toes. No CWDT setup or anything. Just make sure you can spam your health pots quickly. OFC I will die at one point. But so what!


It does hurt when you lose a char in HC but I think that mainly comes from the time investment. Going trhough the regular game three times is a bit too much. If this could get reduced to two difficulties in the future, I don't think people would as frustrated.

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I think that part of this is a bad vision of what should be expected from a character due to the way the passive skill tree works compared to previous ARPGs.


In Diablo II (damn, I never thought I would be the one to bring a "Diablo II did this well" argument to a discussion), you had 4 stats to choose from, and were expected to put some points in all of them, except if your build could specifically skip one (like dex for casters).
Now, you have a vast net of bonuses, and tend to believe that almost nothing is mandatory, where in fact it is mandatory to take X and Y kinds of advantages. The issue that there may be isn't that one has to take some life in order to survive, it is that one has to take all available life in order to survive (even my RF build can die extremely quickly despite having massive amounts of life).

Actually, most builds in D2 just get enough amount of STR and DEX to fulfill gear requirements and/or block cap, and spend all remaining points into VIT (=life nodes). The only build, that had any use of Energy, was ES Sorceress. All others never invested any points into it. And as far as i remember, the only build, who gained benefit from STR and DEX (over cap), was Kick-based Assassin. All others just followed "path of vitality".

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MortalKombat3 wrote:

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I think that part of this is a bad vision of what should be expected from a character due to the way the passive skill tree works compared to previous ARPGs.


In Diablo II (damn, I never thought I would be the one to bring a "Diablo II did this well" argument to a discussion), you had 4 stats to choose from, and were expected to put some points in all of them, except if your build could specifically skip one (like dex for casters).
Now, you have a vast net of bonuses, and tend to believe that almost nothing is mandatory, where in fact it is mandatory to take X and Y kinds of advantages. The issue that there may be isn't that one has to take some life in order to survive, it is that one has to take all available life in order to survive (even my RF build can die extremely quickly despite having massive amounts of life).

Actually, most builds in D2 just get enough amount of STR and DEX to fulfill gear requirements and/or block cap, and spend all remaining points into VIT (=life nodes). The only build, that had any use of Energy, was ES Sorceress. All others never invested any points into it. And as far as i remember, the only build, who gained benefit from STR and DEX (over cap), was Kick-based Assassin. All others just followed "path of vitality".

Yup I said this, but it was in a very large reply so might have been overlooked:

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As far as D2 goes, you are vastly mistaken. Most builds only put stats into what they HAD TO HAVE, everything else was added into life, or if caster and going ES that. PoE allows you to get much less investment in life then D2 ever did.

@wispo

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they need TIME to bring new content so it's their INTEREST to SLOW YOU down AS MUCH AS THEY CAN (with the exp loss). Otherwise, if you don't die/lose exp, you will finish all the builds that you have in mind BEFORE they bring new content... and so you move t another game and don't buy microtransactions anymore. Free to play? Yes, but FUCKED TO PLAY because they still WANT money.

The poe skill is has over 1200 skill points available for allocation, the game has 100's of unqiue items, they change the skill tree ever major patch along with introducing new temp leagues. They don't need to slow you down at all in order to "make time" for new content, they release new content on a very regular basis, not charging you at all to play it.

What in the world does MTX have to do with anything, its obvious you aren't going to support a game you don't like. I honestly don't know what you want from this game other then some how always on defenses so you don't have to attempt to have any skill whatsover, which is what always on defense that you posted from your "beloved game" sure looked like.

People play in standard where they don't get anything but tree changes and the last "temp league left overs" so even then there are people who don't want or care about new content constantly. I'll also say this isn't a MMO where people should expect new context so repeatedly, but make no mistake GGG adds TONS of content for an ARPG, go look at what a MUCH larger company like Blizzard is doing with D3 and tell me what GGG does for content isn't enough.

If GGG was more like marvel heros they could charge for bonus MF for a couple of hours, or bonus xp, ect. They don't charge you for playing any and every aspect of the gameplay experience. I kind of wish they would in a way, but I don't want to get into detail about that.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

How to fix:
1. Remove Immortal Call from game completely (except permanent leagues).
2. Same deal with the Surgeon's affix on flasks.
3. Same deal with instant leech.
4. Make temporary invulnerability into a damn flask.
5. Rebalance monster damage so it's not like everything in all of Wraeclast is trying to instagib you, and rebalance monster life so it's not like an AoE shooting gallery where you instakill everything.
6. Balance charges consumed per use and duration to prevent OPness.

Problem solved.

i like your idea here. this would be cool for the temp leagues. the permanent league can stay the same. you should make a new thread and write this idea there.

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BrainHP wrote:

As my posts are getting deleted and sentences moderated. We'll see how long this one remains up.

You win Goetze. You've succeeded in bullying a player enough to just be done with the whole thing.

You're the best and your opinion is the most worthy.

I was wrong the whole time.

You'll get no rebuttals from me.

I was hoping we could have a civil discussion, but between being moderated and the passive aggressive god-complex I see there is no hope.

For every point I've made in this thread, with more and more detail each time I get either a slight to my character or requesting even more exhaustive details about something. I've tried to deal with your picking slight details out and confabulating what you need just to make your point while ignoring the gist of the other persons' post.

I see now there is absolutely no point in continuing with this thread.

you should report your post and write that you request the thread to be locked otherwise the discussion will only continue.

i don't think you are wrong. don't be so hard on yourself. i think you have written good arguements for your case.

Goetz, there are players that have more or less this assumption in their minds: "hey, this game has made me of company for one year, and i have build 10 exiles in this time... i feel grateful to devs... and i had not even the time to complete my 10th build, that they have released new content!!! with this game i never get bored, so let's buy them a X points/dollars mtx, they deserve it".

But what happens if a player, legitly, don't want to try all those 100+ uniquest (70% of trash...), or all possible gems (example: i personally don't like righteous fire and will never do such a build), or all combat methods (example: a guy that loves melee and "hates" mages)? Simply: happens that the player "John" will not want to build a total of 10 exiles, but only say 5. And after he is done, he dies in boredom, and search for another game. And with this other assumption in mind: "yeah good game, but i finished all the builds that i wanted and there has not been new decent conent from my last exile... so i go play D3". And he doesn't rewards a company that, rightly or wrong in his mind, has bored him.

IMHO, ggg fears this, and slow players too much (by remaining the 10% death penalty un-reduced, although many players has already leaved cause death penalty). I may be wrong, but this is my sensation

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Wispo wrote:

Goetz, there are players that have more or less this assumption in their minds: "hey, this game has made me of company for one year, and i have build 10 exiles in this time... i feel grateful to devs... and i had not even the time to complete my 10th build, that they have released new content!!! with this game i never get bored, so let's buy them a X points/dollars mtx, they deserve it".

But what happens if a player, legitly, don't want to try all those 100+ uniquest (70% of trash...), or all possible gems (example: i personally don't like righteous fire and will never do such a build), or all combat methods (example: a guy that loves melee and "hates" mages)? Simply: happens that the player "John" will not want to build a total of 10 exiles, but only say 5. And after he is done, he dies in boredom, and search for another game. And with this other assumption in mind: "yeah good game, but i finished all the builds that i wanted and there has not been new decent conent from my last exile... so i go play D3". And he doesn't rewards a company that, rightly or wrong in his mind, has bored him.

IMHO, ggg fears this, and slow players too much (by remaining the 10% death penalty un-reduced, although many players has already leaved cause death penalty). I may be wrong, but this is my sensation

This has been your best post I've read to date. Not because I agree with it 100% but it isn't just strait up wrong.

I can agree with the statement that people do spend more money if they feel they are getting value, if you didn't notice all the fancy titles by my name it means i've spent a fair bit of money. So I know for a fact this one is pretty spot on.

Whats great about PoE is there are so many playstyles and what might be good 6 months ago, might not be as good now, so you can\should be inclined to try something else, even if it is a similar playstyle.

Everyone will have different goals in what they want in this type of a game, I had someone that just beat normal and was ok with not playing anymore, he got the story and to play around with a few "fun" skills. He doesn't necessarily enjoy the grind, IMO this is fine, but that person isn't who GGG should be catering the game to as he isn't going to be crucial IMO to the longevity of the game. He didn't\won't be buying MTX's he won't be needing stash tabs, so GGG can never make money off of such player. Not saying GGG should only cater to players that spend money, but keep in mind that is a factor when developing a game, especially a F2P game that has MTX's.

Some people think level 75 or 80 is enough to "complete" a character, IMO this is just where the vast majority of characters actually start to get good. Every point going from 75-90 is typically a nice sweet dps or bonus aura or something cool thats a bit of a "bonus" as the highest maps currently are 78 maps, arguably you can say any skill points after level 78 are "bonus ones"

Personally I would never consider a character complete until he got to 90. Why 90 and not some other level, well that is because in order to get to 90 in softcore you must have a balanced character, one that has enough dps, life\es, defenses (layered of course :P ) and you've mastered or come close to mastering the challenges of at least maps that are level 75 typically. Is this character necessarily uber atziri capable or will never die, no you can still make mistakes and level to 90 as long as you have the skill, knowledge and defenses to do so.

The #1 complaint or excuse for removing or reducing the XP penalty is desync, with lockstep mode that is no longer an excuse, hence why I am very dismissive of removing or reducing a system that was put in place to prevent cheesing your way up and leveling characters that haven't been properly build/planned/played.

If anyone leaves PoE NOW for D3 they must not be aware of changes forthcoming or maybe they are and cannot fathom playing a seriously changed game (which Act 4 will bring us) Either way I think its a mistake.


@kompaniet

Your reply to Brain is confusing, he isn't the OP of this thread so even if he does report his post and request the thread to be locked they won't do it. The only lock threads under OP's request or if support has to CONSTANTLY moderate it. He had his post edited and I had one removed because it escalated too far, he has good points and you've probably only see the unedited ones, but he posted that reply after I posted mine and mine short but to the point post was removed, while in this particular case his wasn't.

@scrotiemcb when are you going to either resurrect your thread about poe 2.0 or make a new come comparing what GGG hasn't done in beta and what they still have left to do (to meet your poe 2.0 requirements)

His thread is a very different game then what we know now or what we even know in beta, theres a reason why I haven't purchased a new supporter pack yet because I cannot preemptively support the game that if @scrotiemcb has his way or many other players for that matter I wouldn't enjoy playing.


Anyway again @wispo good post, if you continue this type of posting we can get along :D

I have died very few times by desync, but many times by shitty mechanics. Until these mechanics will "live", 10% penalty even after lvl 80 or worstly 90 it's nuts, because even good preparing your exile, playing safe etc cannot save you by a sudden damage that hits you in a quarter of a second and instakills you (example magnus)

I've never gone after level 78 on a single character.
Even though considering all my chars from softcore league
Couldn't keep those few hardcore chars alive past normal act 2.