A potential change I'm keen to hear your thoughts on

No.

Out of so many ways to balance MoM this must be the worse.

There isn't really many options for builds w/o Cloak of Defiance to run MoM with that unbalance that you stated. Inbetween a decent life pool, block or IR, and Mana Regen nodes (Yes they were nerfed already in 1.3, as well as Clarity) players don't get that many left.

If you must nerf something, Cloak is the logical choice. Killing eb convertion is unfair for non CoD builds and a crime against build diversity :P

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AgaresOaks wrote:

2) Get ES some other way. Combine with soul reaver + LGOH. You can squeeze extra auras in, but otherwise this seems to be pretty much be equivalent to getting mana leech (ie. you need to gear or gem slot to do it) with the wonderful added need to get LGOH from somewhere (which is much harder). Alternatively, use zealot's oath. This mean saccing a lot of nodes to life regen and getting a decent ES pool to sustain most abilities. And I mean a LOT. 1k ES with 5% life regen is only 50 "mana" regen. The big benefit is your mana pool is 1k instead of say... a few hundred so that might be viable. If there's some reliable ways to get ES on hit this might be viable, but we've only seen that on jewels, so...

well, I mean you cant get LGOH with spells so.. for attacks thats gonna work, and will maybe be interesting with the new claws? Will mana leech leech to the energy shield portion of the es/mana/whatever/misc bluegloberesource puddle thing or just to the mana bit of the mana, like the blue bit, if anyones still following me?


I mean what Im picturing now after what mark said, for spells, youd get eb, and youd get a load of %es rather than % mana, and youd get a cod same way you would before. Then youd get ghost reaver, which is now essentially turning your life leech into mana leech for the es part of your mana that is also 30% of your life because of mom so its still sort of life leech while also being es leech thats actually mana leech because you es is your mana except its not actually your mana because its es on top of mana thats acting as mana, and life, right? You with me? I hope so because I might need you to explain to me what I just said in 5 minutes when I lose it again.

Essentially what Im saying is that you lose your life leech, sort of. Its still sort of life leech but only 30% life leech because the mana es is now 30% of your life from the cod chest... fuck it I dont know what Im saying. But I can sort of see it working, maybe.

Did I just go insane or is someone else out there with me on this?

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Hodari wrote:

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VegaszTheFarmer wrote:

Looks pretty bad to me. 0/10. AA/MoM dead.

For everyone worried about AA...if that is the only problem, can't they just adjust the costs of it accordingly? As was already noted, this change, like EVERY change in a patch of this size, is not happening on its own.

This horrible change will not just make it so AA in its current state can't be run with EB / MoM it will also prevent a proper number of auras from being run with all the aura nodes by shadow / scion / witch. Small adjustments are one thing, and I have had to adjust all my builds in each major patch, there is no adjustment to this. Every current MoM / EB build will be broken.

Without AA or MoM how can classes that aren't Strength-based mitigate physical damage?

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BMutsaards wrote:

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FunkyFritter wrote:

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Rory wrote:

Damage won't interrupt ES recovery any more, only losing mana or ES will.

This part could use clarification. If you take (non-chaos) damage you lose ES, so wouldn't that still stop ES recovery? If it doesn't, it seems like a massive buff to low life builds, they can cast via blood magic and just have their ES constantly regenerate for free.

The energy shield wont absorb damage anymore. It will be used as mana for your active skills.

Not if you use shavs/lorica

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Snorkle_uk wrote:

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AgaresOaks wrote:

2) Get ES some other way. Combine with soul reaver + LGOH. You can squeeze extra auras in, but otherwise this seems to be pretty much be equivalent to getting mana leech (ie. you need to gear or gem slot to do it) with the wonderful added need to get LGOH from somewhere (which is much harder). Alternatively, use zealot's oath. This mean saccing a lot of nodes to life regen and getting a decent ES pool to sustain most abilities. And I mean a LOT. 1k ES with 5% life regen is only 50 "mana" regen. The big benefit is your mana pool is 1k instead of say... a few hundred so that might be viable. If there's some reliable ways to get ES on hit this might be viable, but we've only seen that on jewels, so...

well, I mean you cant get LGOH with spells so.. for attacks thats gonna work, and will maybe be interesting with the new claws? Will mana leech leech to the energy shield portion of the es/mana/whatever/misc bluegloberesource puddle thing or just to the mana bit of the mana, like the blue bit, if anyones still following me?


I mean what Im picturing now after what mark said, for spells, youd get eb, and youd get a load of %es rather than % mana, and youd get a cod same way you would before. Then youd get ghost reaver, which is now essentially turning your life leech into mana leech for the es part of your mana that is also 30 of you life because of mom so its still sort of life leech while also being es leech thats actually mana leech because you es is your mana except its not actually your mana because its es on top of mana thats acting as mana, and life, right? You with me? I hope so because I might need you to explain to me what I just said in 5 minutes when I lose it again.

Essentially what Im saying is that you lose your life leech, sort of. Its still sort of life leech but only 30% life leech because the mana es is now 30% of your life from the cod chest... fuck it I dont know what Im saying. But I can sort of see it working, maybe.

Did I just go insane or is someone else out there with me on this?

Im with you , but my head is kinda upside down as its 0600 hrs here and i havent been home from work since the day before today , but yeah the new claws will make a lot of fun builds , with this even more so :D

Only time will tell guys, as it is, i don't agree with it.

Why not switch the locations of EB and MoM? Gives southern classes different options for mana, turns mana into an interesting resource for casters, removes the requirement for CoD for caster builds, but makes mana to sustain MoM a challenge to obtain, and could be really interesting for es/life hybrid classes, using mom has a backup for when your es runs out

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Rory wrote:

This is one of the Keystone changes we'll be trying out in the Beta soon:



Edit: I suppose I should note this character has Eldritch Battery. Her Energy Shield is now paid before mana.

Edit edit: All the usual effects on Energy Shield will still apply to this ES - Recovery delay, Ghost Reaver, Zealot's Oath, etc. You'll not have any more base mana than you would have had prior to taking the keystone, though. Damage won't interrupt ES recovery any more, only losing mana or ES will.

Edit edit edit: Stun avoidance will no longer apply. Arctic Armour will still drain mana, ignoring Energy Shield, as will Mind over Matter. You can't reserve energy shield, so you'll just reserve the mana underneath.
Edit by Mark: Mind over Matter doesn't take from mana like AA, it damages it, which would be protected by ES in this case, since damage is what ES protects from.

More background: This change has an interesting history; I suggested it offhand as a strange idea, but it solved a few key factors we were investigating, like AA/MoM defense being too high for too low a cost, so it was decided to go ahead and try it out. It's quite likely we'll see other changes to the kesytone as testing progresses, but because it's such a big change to one of the most popular Kesytones, any sweeping change won't be made without testing the waters carefully. The change isn't intended to 'kill' any mechanics, but will give us the opportunity to reassess some. Edit: Like the mana drain amount or mechanic on Arctic Armour

Edit: Thanks for your thoughts, everyone! The team will definitely be discussing it on Monday, and we'll keep you abreast of changes as they're made. Keep your concerns and suggestions coming.

i like it, i have always hated the fact that clarity was pretty much unusable without EB or like 100% increased mana since it would have the equivilant of a 50% mana reservation, but my question is, firstly the location of the key stone at the moment is.... less than optimal for anyone who isnt a spell caster or dagger, and secondly, what are the options for regening ES? does mana regen apply to ES? because, that would be really really cool if mana is full, mana regen applys to es.

we have.... aegis block? recharge, and ghost reaver/ zealots. if mana leech applies to ES with this keystone, i could see it having a use. for casters though thats really unfair since casters cant get leech on gear(something i have always hated) if "xx phys dmg leached as xx" were all changed to "xx dmmg leeched as xx" i could see this being as a really really good change, viable to use, and u cant run like a lvl 25 AA and still have 1k mana left for mom.

tldr, if it had something like, if mana is full, all mana regeneration effects apply to energy shield. and leech was changed to apply to everythign not just physical damage, so you could actually get leech from tree/gear and not only life leech gem/1%from master craft/ doryanis, i think this change would do exactly what you want. nerf AA, and remove the more es*more mana multiplier that makes mom beyond stupidly strong. would have the bonus of giving casters something to be happy about rather than a straight up hey guys *NERF HAMMER TO THE FACE* and give non casters something interesting and a possible reason to take EB

I think that you (the devs) underestimate the costs associated with using AA/MoM and vastly overestimate the degree to which it protects you.