Spell Echo needs downsides

Too mandatory? As opposed to say, the other obvious skills you mentioned?

I'm really confused by your argument. You list a bunch of 'more' modifiers to skills which spells don't get but note multistrike is less numerically powerful. You say spell echo has become mandatory and it should be nerfed but spellcasters shouldn't be nerfed.

If you increase the multiplier you'll be nerfing low lvl spellcasters because they won't be able to afford the mana costs of most spells. Then GGG will have to go and retune all the spell mana costs. Where is the benefit in any of this?

If you're suggesting there should be credible alternatives to spell echo and multistrike then I'd agree - perhaps a 'slower cast more damage' (that cannot be linked with flameblast! hehe)

i suggested a scenario in which the power of casters would not change overall, also the additional time you're standing still is only 18% which is indeed a downside but rarely a serious problem. i also don't see how i suggested that faster casting and spell echo should not be usable together.
Did any of you even read my post entirely? Did you read my second post and the questions i asked there?

Rebalancing the mana and base dps part is easy, the question is if you think a scenario in which self casting is JUST AS GOOD or BETTER than it is now but does not require spell echo in every case is an improvement.

-> Do you think spell echo is a FUN choice that you can feel SMART about or do you just like it because it makes you more powerful?

Edit: @davidnn5 You can get 70+% (easily above 100% with apeps or good gear) cast speed at which point faster casting becomes fairly unattractive - but i mentioned that already. Multistrike - though about as common as spell echo - is popular because it is convenient in addition to being a good dps boost. Other considerations of MS are also in the OP.

As an aside about the concept of slower but more damaging... Does anyone use slower projectiles for anything but ball lightning? Or even for ball lightning that commonly?

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davidnn5 wrote:

As an aside about the concept of slower but more damaging... Does anyone use slower projectiles for anything but ball lightning? Or even for ball lightning that commonly?

Ball lightning got buffed into viability, but blessed heck people still don't use it that much because when it came out it was awful.

Glacial cascade - another hidden gem of a spell. Criminally underrated.

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-> Do you think spell echo is a FUN choice that you can feel SMART about or do you just like it because it makes you more powerful?

Edit: @davidnn5 You can get 70+% (easily above 100% with apeps or good gear) cast speed at which point faster casting becomes fairly unattractive - but i mentioned that already. Multistrike - though about as common as spell echo - is popular because it is convenient in addition to being a good dps boost. Other considerations of MS are also in the OP.

I don't think multistrike, spell echo, melee physical damage, weapon elemental damage, faster casting OR concentrated effect are generally fun optional choices, because they're no-brainers if you have space. Melee damage on full life is more interesting because you have to at least build around it a bit.

What would you insert instead of faster casting in a 5 or 6 link by the way, presuming you'd hit 70+ cast speed?

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davidnn5 wrote:

I don't think multistrike, spell echo, melee physical damage, weapon elemental damage, faster casting OR concentrated effect are generally fun optional choices, because they're no-brainers if you have space. Melee damage on full life is more interesting because you have to at least build around it a bit.

What would you insert instead of faster casting in a 5 or 6 link by the way, presuming you'd hit 70+ cast speed?

I think the important thing with more melee physical damage is that it does not boost non-converted elemental damage and can have an edge because physical damage can leech and suffers less from enemy mitigation.(-> it's your reward for choosing physcial rather than elemental damage. the general comparison with melee here is bad though and i only brought up MS to display a bit of disbelief in how MS is at least a bit interesting, while spell echo, which came quite a bit afterwards, is not interesting at all)

Concentrated effect's reduced area is actually quite significant(0->-30% radius = 51% smaller area; +30% ->0% = 41% smaller area) and imo is not mandatory on fireball for example where the larger aoe gives you greater overlap of the explosions (with lmp) as well as allowing it to hit additional enemies behind the first "row".

a fireball without faster casting might look like: Fireball-LMP-spellEcho-firePen-LLeech-(prolif/PCoC/pierce/concentrated Effect)
spells that make good use of added damage like freezing pulse probably have an even easier time replacing FC:
Freezing Pulse-fasterProjectiles-GMP-LLeech-addedChaos/Cold-(SpellEcho/blind/PCoC/critDamage/ColdPen)

At the start of open beta i think i played Ice Spear-AddedChaos-LMP-pierce-CritDamage which i liked because the low damage spikes and high chaos damage meant i didnt kill myself with reflect but also didnt need penetration at the cost of lower freeze duration - which i was fine with.

I actually have a glacial cascade build which uses spell echo and herald of ice. Also have an arc build which also use spell echo and herald of thunder. Nerfing spell echo would seriously hurt my chars DPS.

I however also like the idea of introducing other alternatives which also give a good boost to DPS.

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i suggested a scenario in which the power of casters would not change overall, also the additional time you're standing still is only 18% which is indeed a downside but rarely a serious problem. i also don't see how i suggested that faster casting and spell echo should not be usable together.
Did any of you even read my post entirely? Did you read my second post and the questions i asked there?

Rebalancing the mana and base dps part is easy, the question is if you think a scenario in which self casting is JUST AS GOOD or BETTER than it is now but does not require spell echo in every case is an improvement.

-> Do you think spell echo is a FUN choice that you can feel SMART about or do you just like it because it makes you more powerful?

Edit: @davidnn5 You can get 70+% (easily above 100% with apeps or good gear) cast speed at which point faster casting becomes fairly unattractive - but i mentioned that already. Multistrike - though about as common as spell echo - is popular because it is convenient in addition to being a good dps boost. Other considerations of MS are also in the OP.

You seem to not be understanding what everybody in this thread is saying.

What's the fucking point?